WB: Clemente vs. Kaline (Bill James Version)
Posted: April 3rd, 2008 | Filed under: Baseball | 35 Comments »
I was going to wait for Bill to respond before posting my Clemente-Kaline Who’s Better poll, but then I realized he was really, really busy with lots of stuff and might not have the time to get to it. So I posted it and … well, he did have time. So here’s his essay, which is of course — great.
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I am afraid I will have to stiff you on the request to choose between Al Kaline and Roberto Clemente. I have thought about this issue for (I think) three days since you put the question to me, and I have been unable to come up with an answer. It is my view that the two players are of so much the same quality that I am unable to say for sure which one I would rather have.
Let me begin by pointing out the quite remarkable similarities between the two men, which you must be aware of anyway or you would not have asked me to compare them.
Both men were right-handed hitting, right-handed throwing right fielders, born late in the year in 1934 (Clemente in August, Kaline in December). Both men had 3,000 hits in their careers — the twelfth and thirteenth men to accomplish that; now there are 26. (Another right handed-hitting, right-handed throwing right fielder, also born in 1934, Henry Aaron, had also been the tenth man to 3,000) Clemente wound up his career with 3,000 hits exactly; Kaline with 3,007.
Both men have the name “bert” inside their first names-Albert and Roberto.
Al Kaline’s career high in Home Runs was 29, and he hit 23 to 29 homers eight times. Roberto Clemente’s career high in Home Runs was also 29, and he hit 23 to 29 three times. Kaline hit .300 eight times. Clemente hit .300 thirteen times.
Kaline scored 100 runs twice, and drove in 100 three times. Clemente scored 100 three times, and drove in 100 twice.
Roberto Clemente won twelve Gold Gloves as an outfielder. Al Kaline won ten Gold Gloves as an outfielder, but very probably would have won two more had the Award started two years earlier.
Many seasons of the two players appear to be almost interchangeable. Kaline in 1956 hit .314 with 27 home runs, 128 RBI, finishing third in American League MVP voting. Clemente in 1966 hit .317 with 29 home runs, 119 RBI, winning the National League MVP Award.
Kaline was a great player and is certainly a deserving Hall of Famer, but he was probably overrated for much of his career. He had two great seasons as a very young player, which built an aura of greatness around him. He then did not follow through with the MVP-type seasons that appeared to be in the offing for him as a 21-year-old, but because he was a such a nice and well-respected person-and a good player-people were reluctant to point this out, and, by the way. ..what is an “offing” exactly? If something is no longer in the offing is it then out the offing, or is it off the outing?
Kaline hustled always and played very hard, but he was in Coast for much of his career.
Clemente, on the other hand, was very underrated for much of his career, and had a chip on his shoulder because of it. He wasn’t angry about not winning the MVP Award in 1960; he was furious. He always felt that he had something more to prove, and because of this he drove himself harder and harder. Because of this he matured very late, irritated many people, and it may well be that his conviction that he wasn’t getting the credit due him drove him to become the player-and the man–that he eventually was.
At the same time:
1) In a side-by-side comparison of them, Clemente starts out far, far behind, and
2) Because Clemente died a hero, he has had a very strong posthumous halo effect, causing him to be tremendously overrated by many people over the last 35 years.
And, by the way, can a person who is not born yet be said to be “prehumous”? Or should “prehumous” mean “not dead yet”? What exactly is humous? Can your humous be in the offing? Is offing your humous a felony, or merely something that will grow hair on your palms?
Al Kaline batted about 10% more times than Clemente and made about 10% more outs, but scored about 15% more runs and drove in about 20% more runs. Clemente had better batting averages; Kaline drew more walks and hit more home runs. In that walks and home runs lead also to runs scored, Kaline was actually spinning the scoreboard a little faster than was Clemente, despite Clemente’s 20-point edge in career batting average (.317 to .297).
When Kaline hit .340 as a 20-year-old (27 homers, 102 RBI) and then drove in 128 runs as a 21-year-old (27 homers, .314), people expected him to have seasons like Willie Mays would have, or Aaron–.350 with 45 homers and 135 RBI. He never did. His numbers went down when they should have been going up.
At the same time, Kaline’s “peak” seasons are, in a sense, very much underrated.
Kaline’s triple-crown numbers went backward because:
1) He had injuries that limited his playing time, and
2) Baseball fell into a pitcher’s era, in which hitting numbers in general went way down.
But actually, Al Kaline in 1967, when he hit .308 with 25 homers, 78 RBI, was a more effective player than he was in 1956, when he hit. …already given you those numbers twice. Kaline in 1956 batted 313 times with men on base, 178 times with runners in scoring position. In 1967 he batted 196 times with men on base, and 91 times with runners in scoring position. Naturally he did not drive in as many runs in 1967 as he had in 1956.
Kaline was as valuable in 1966 (.288, 29 homers, 88 RBI) as he had been in 1955 (.340, 27, 102). His 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967 and 1968 seasons-superficially impressive-are in fact seasons of which any Hall of Famer should be proud.
The difference between Kaline and Clemente is, in a sense, the difference between Wilt Chamberlain and Kareem Abdul-Jabar. Clemente, like Wilt, was visually stunning, and there is a mythic quality to him. Kaline, like Kareem, was less stunning but a better percentage player. Clemente was the Vladimir Guerrero of his time, and God knows I love Vladimir, but no one ever described Vladi as a percentage player. Clemente could hit anything, and because he could hit anything he would swing at anything. He did it with a collection of neck jerks and shoulder twitches that suggested he had ants in his jock strap.
It was the difference between marrying a woman who looks good in a negligee, and marrying a woman who will be there when you find yourself in trouble. Clemente had that fantastic arm, and it was easy to exaggerate the value of a great arm because, at the time, no one really knew. It was easy for people to say that Clemente threw out 15 or 20 runners every year, but the real value of the arm was the hundreds of runners who didn’t go first to third on a single against him, and who didn’t score from second, and who didn’t score from first on a double. It’s a different world now; we know how many of those plays there are. It’s a couple of dozen bases a year; it isn’t hundreds.
Kaline drew more than twice as many walks in his career as Clemente, 1277-621. It’s a big difference. There’s a lot of bases there, a lot of runs. Clemente hit .357 one year with a strikeout/walk ratio of 103-41-and almost half of the walks were intentional. Kaline the same year had twice as many walks and half as many strikeouts. Kaline delivered many more sacrifice flies, and grounded into fewer double plays. Kaline stole almost twice as many bases, with a better stolen base percentage. It adds up.
Defensively, it’s the same thing. Clemente had many more baserunner kills (266-173), but almost twice as many errors (140-73).
Hey, I’m not knocking Wilt; I idolized Wilt. Give me Wilt, give me Kareem; I’ll be OK either way. Give me the woman in the negligee or the woman with the heart of gold; I’ll make it work either way.
I have said before that I thought Kaline was a better player than Roberto Clemente, but
a) what I have said before is no standard of the truth, and
b) as time passes we develop more information and better ways of measuring things.
Given my best methods on this issue right now. . .. I just don’t know. It’s too close to call.
My best effort right now is Win Shares and Loss Shares. I credit Kaline with a career Won-Lost contribution of 377-164 (.696), and Clemente with a career Won-Lost contribution of 342-170 (.668). The difference is within the margin of error. The most suspect part of the Won-Lost calculation is the fielding part. I have Kaline ahead, as a fielder, but I’m not 100% certain that’s a correct estimate.
And then, there is the question of “What do you mean by ‘better’.” For his career Kaline is “better”, but what people sometimes mean by “better” is peak value. Clemente from 1964 to 1971 has a won-lost contribution of 188-42. Kaline’s best eight-year stretch (1961-1968) scores at 158-39.
Kaline was better than Clemente in 1955, 1956, 1957, 1958, 1959 and 1961, and also, I suppose, in 1953 and 1954, although he was really of no value in 1953 and 1954. Often Kaline was vastly better; Kaline was 26-5 in 1955 compared to Clemente’s 8-19, and 21-6 in 1959 compared to Clemente’s 10-13. Kaline, injured in 1962, was 15-7; Clemente, healthy, was 18-13. But Clemente was bigger than Kaline, in terms of value over a replacement player, every year from 1963 until his death. . .the last ten years. Sometimes he was bigger because he played more; sometimes because he played better.
Clemente’s peak value is higher than Kaline.
Kaline is the underBert in this fight, and I am sticking up for the underBert. You ask anybody who knows everything, he’ll tell you it’s Clemente all the way. They were both great players. I can’t ultimately say which one was better.
Win Share-Loss Share records for Kaline and Clemente:
1953 Kaline 0-1
1954 Kaline 10-19
1955 Kaline 26-5; Clemente 8-19
1956 Kaline 24-7; Clemente 14-15
1957 Kaline 19-12; Clemente 9-17
1958 Kaline 21-9; Clemente 16-13
1959 Kaline 21-6; Clemente 10-13
1960 Kaline 17-13; Clemente 19-13
1961 Kaline 25-6; Clemente 23-8
1962 Kaline 15-7; Clemente 18-13
1963 Kaline 20-8; Clemente 22-11
1964 Kaline 22-6; Clemente 25-7
1965 Kaline 16-5; Clemente 24-7
1966 Kaline 21-4; Clemente 26-9
1967 Kaline 24-1; Clemente 27-3
1968 Kaline 15-3; Clemente 22-6
1969 Kaline 15-10; Clemente 24-3
1970 Kaline 15-11; Clemente 19-2
1971 Kaline 18-4; Clemente 21-7
1972 Kaline 11-4; Clemente 15-6
1973 Kaline 9-9
1974 Kaline 12-15
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I’ll take Ernie Harwell.
The Tigers broadcast tv crew for a number of years was George Kell and Al Kaline. They were not good and served as a reminder of why most color-men need an actual announcer in the booth with them.
Here’s a vote topic – who is/was the worst former ballplayer turned broadcaster? Al Kaline or Ken Harrelson?
As a Tiger fan, I’m just ecstatic Kaline holds his own (at least) so well since Clemente is so much more famous.
But I should mention I’m not just a Tiger fan when it comes to Al Kaline. I’m a Tiger fan whose mom was put on the local news because she had devoted the front of our house to a shrine to Kaline in an effort to get his number retired.
I’m a Tiger fan, who when he went to bed as a child and asked his mom to make up a story, was told the biography of one Al Kaline.
In my house, it was a given the first number we’d seek out on our baseball teams was number six and we’d screw up our faces with impatience when somebody asked us why.
Incidentally, somebody mentioned the close relation between Kaline’s name and the battery. I’m not sure how old I was when I realized the batteries weren’t named after number six.
Awesome – I would have guessed RC in a landslide. Now I’m just not going to vote.
Oddibe – That’s easy….Ron Santo.
Worst ballplayer to ever become an announcer, or worst announcing ex-ballplayer?
It’s hard to imagine someone being more ignorant and stubborn than Joe Morgan, or more devoid of intelligent thought than Tim McCarver.
As far as best announcing ex-ballplayer, I really enjoyed Leiter in the playoffs a few years ago. And for some reason, I feel like I heard Orel once or twice and he sounded good. And as a Sox fan who watches about 140-150 games per year, I think Remy is pretty impressive.
Somebody send this piece to Morley Safer.
Bert Blyleven is one of the worst ex-ballplayer announcers around, and seems to be getting no better. He couldn’t even get Carlos Gomez’s name right on opening day. I guess he was asleep during spring training.
Harrelson’s pretty bad, but Jeff Brantley gives him a run for his money. Brantley had a classic moment last night. Reds were 2 runs down with 2 on in the 9th and Edwin Encarnacion up. Brantley was emphatically insisting to Thom Brennaman that Encarnacion was “not a clutch player.” The word “player” was barely out of his mouth when Encarnacion whacked a 3-run walkoff homer. Pretty sweet.
Great piece on Clemente vs. Kaline. Both great pieces, actually. Growing up in the late 60s, when the NL and AL differed pretty drastically in style of play, I always thought Clemente was sort of the prototypical NL player (black, slash hitting, speed-oriented, hell-for-leather style) while Kaline was the prototypical AL player. I much preferred the NL, although I’m enough of a sabermetrics guy to see that what I still think of as the “AL style” (i.e., less emphasis on speed and hitting for average, more on walks and power) is probably the more effective. Unfortunate, that, because it’s a lot less exciting.
Best players turned announcers: I haven’t heard him that often, but Joe’s old pal Duane Kuiper in San Francisco is quite good, teamed with Mike Krukow. I always liked Larry Dierker, but I’m not sure he’s even announcing any more.
So would Babe Ruth be the woman who would look good in negligee AND who would also be there for you when you got in trouble? Both of those are scary thoughts, no?
I’d take Ted Williams I suppose. Or Hank Aaron. But not the Babe. And the thought of Barry Bonds just made me puke a little.
Every time I read something from Bill James, I’m reminded why I always want to read more from Bill James.
And the best ex-player-turned-broadcaster is Jim Palmer.
Where is your column on how the Royals can win it all this year????
This is one of those “Hillary Dodging Snipers” stories where the truth and perception have long ago gone in diverse routes.
But I was a kid one Saturday afternoon long, long ago and Dizzy Dean was calling the game on TV. Falstaff was the sponsor. And they kept going back to a couple in the right field bleachers who were necking.
It wasn’t much of a game and I was nodding off when my Dad started laughing uncontrolably.
He later explained why. But if we’re gonna vote on the best ex-player baseball play-by-play guy, you’ve gotta give some votes to Diz who said of the affectionate couple in the bleachers:
“He’s kissing her on the strikes and she’s kissing him on the balls.”
Bill James is just a blast to let wash over you and absorb as much as possible!
As to the side topic:
Best former ballplayer turned color announcer is a tie because of their perspective on the diamond:
Pitcher: Steve Stone
Infielder: Jerry Remy
Both understand the strategy of the game and are able to communicate it in a succinct manner.
Clearly none of you are listening to Keith Hernandez’ awful job on Mets broadcasts, that said he’s not nearly as bad as Tom Seaver was on NBC or when he did Yankee games with Phil Rizzuto.
hey–what about mike shannon???
Worst player-turned announcer? It’s the Hawk in a landslide. And for what it’s worth, I disagree on Blyleven.. I think he’s pretty good (and this from an Indians fan).
Has any team had a longer/stranger hall-of-fame draught than the Tigers? None since Kaline in a period that included a truly dominant team (1984) and a decade when they were named baseball’s best team. It seems likely that the current team has at least one (assuming Pudge doesn’t get locked out because of steroids), but there was a 30-some year span when they never even managed to get one on the field.
There are a large number of ex-players who are fairly atrocious at announcing (Joe Morgan has always been my nemesis), but the important difference is that most baseball broadcasts have the good sense to keep them as the analyst/color man so that their total airtime is necessarily limited.
The most notable exception is Hawk Harrelson (whose color man, Darrin Jackson, is equally painful). His play by play is absolutely excruciating: from minute-long silences while play is going on to excessive use of old-timey baseball jargon that he most likely made up himself, he is just unbearable. The worst part, however, is that you are basically listening to him root for the White Sox for 3 hours. Now there are many announcers who are clear homers (e.g. Santo, Tommy Heinsohn), but they are never the actual play by play man. So the viewers are treated to an afternoon of Hawk yelling at the ball (“Get foul!” “Get up! Stretch!”), exhorting White Sox players (“C’mon Paulie, get one right here”), and celebrating when things go well (“He gone!” and of course the now infamous HR call). I’ve never imagined such a blatant affront to the baseball broadcasting profession could exist before I moved to Chicago.
On the positive side, I’ve always been a believer that Steve Stone is the best color man (former player or otherwise) in the business, especially when it comes to insights on pitching. Al Leiter is also very insightful, and as a Red Sox fan I certainly enjoy Remy as part of our great TV team.
What he doesn’t point out is that Clemente made his numbers in a tougher park and in a tougher league. Kaline’s and Clemente’s home run rates on the road are equal and Clemente outslugged Kaline on the road.
And that doesn’t account for the difference in talent Clemente and other National League players faced on a daily basis.
Kaline was a great player but if I choose only one I’ll take Clemente.
Tom Seaver. Absolutely terrible color guy. Mostly just talks about himself.
It seems to me that there’s a “half-life” for any color man in any sport. While a great play-by-player can go on for decades (Vin Scully, Marv Albert in basketball, to name two that come to mind) I think all color men eventually become caricatures of themselves and get old and tired. I hear, and agree with, all of the criticism that gets leveled at McCarver, for example. And yet, I have to say that, back when McCarver was announcing Met games, before we got to network, we was terriffic. He just ran out of things to say that were new, stopped learning and became an insufferable know-it-all who really didn’t know that much. In football, I think most would agree that Madden, for the first several years of his career, was a hall-of-famer. These days, I find him more annoying than anything else and he no longer says anything that surprises me or makes me think. It sure seems to me that even for a reall good color man, 10 or maybe 15 years is the outside. for less talented folks, probably even less time.
Al Kaline is my all time hero, the numero uno… and I was lucky enough to meet him when he still played, what thrill.
Best announcer who was an ex-player?
It ain’t Ron Fairly
Tom Seaver in my opinion.
“Here’s a vote topic – who is/was the worst former ballplayer turned broadcaster? Al Kaline or Ken Harrelson?”
You mean player turned into worst broadcaster? Or worst player turned into broadcaster?
Hawk Harrelson is by far the most annoying, with his blatant homerism, stupid sayings and lack of knowledge on simple baseball rules.
Tim McCarver is by far the most stupid and lazy.
Joe Morgan and Rick Sutcliffe are nice runner-ups.
God, I wish someone would give Al Leiter a job…
I dislike Morgan and McCarver too, but neither of them is anything close to the worst ex-jock broadcaster. They simply annoy us more because they get more exposure. And for all their faults (which are many), both of them have certain lucid moments where they’re capable of giving us some insight into the game we didn’t have before. Not to mention that both are now in their dotage. Fifteen, twenty years ago both of them were much better at their jobs. It’s hard to remember, but it’s true.
Now if you want TRULY bad announcers with no redeeming qualities whatsoever, you need to look beyond the national broadcasts and focus on the guys who are too stupid and incompetent even for Big Fox. Bill Schroeder in Milwaukee. Mark Grant in San Diego. Jeff Brantley in Cincinnati. Rick Monday in L.A. The Hawk. These guys are so much worse than Morgan and McCarver it’s not even funny.
As for the ex-jock announcers who are actually good, there are surprisingly many: Dierker, Krukow, Darling, Kaat, Leiter, Sutton, Stone, Hershiser — they’re all pitchers. Well, I guess not all. Kuiper and Uecker are really good. Joe Torre was also great at it, as was the late Don Drysdale.
Rex Hudler needs to be mentioned, preferably more than once, on any discussion about ex-ballplayers-turned-terrible-broadcasters. Angels broadcasts are insufferable with Steve Psychotic and Wonder Dog in your ears.
That said, excellent post from JeffSol about the “half-life” of color analysts. McCarver was one of the better analysts in baseball, I thought … 15 years ago. Not so much anymore, of course.
And while he’s not an ex-jock, the greatest announcer — PBP *and* color, all by himself — in baseball remains the Voice of the Dodgers, Vin Scully. Simply the best.
Creston, Al Leiter does have a job. He is usually (although not for every game) the color man for Yankees broadcasts on YES. It’s sad when a good man goes Yankee…
Al Leiter “went Yankee” a long time ago (June 23, 1984 to be precise).
What fun analysis from Bill James. Like many, I probably would’ve said “Roberto Clemente” before looking at the stats. As it is, the standard stats that I value most tend to tip in Kaline’s favor (e.g., SOs and OBP). I’d rather have Al Kaline putting the ball in play and hitting for lower average, but getting on base more often, than Clemente striking out.
I like the style of play that Clemente was supposed to embody: the classic NL player, slashing at the ball, adeptly circling the bases, fleet of foot. But was Clemente really speedier than Kaline? SBs would say otherwise…not sure how else to measure this…(I realize SBs is not the best measure of speed).
As for announcers…a few nods for Dierker above…as a long-time Astros fan, I love Larry Dierker. Currently, Jim Deshaies does the color honors for the Astros. JD does a pretty good job.
I agree with all the usual suspects for bad announcers, esp. McCarver and Morgan. I have been watching the playoffs with the sound turned off because I can’t handle Buck or McCarver. I feel sorry for Cardinals fans who have to put up with Buck all year long. Joe, your dad was one of the greats, but you are not. Now you need to go concentrate on football so we only have to hear you a few Sundays each year.
In comparing Clemente and Kaline you must start with the pitching they faced. Clemente hit for very high average against almost all the dominant pitchers of his era. Koufax .299. Spahn .471 Drysdale .361 Carelton .333 Sutton .354 Marichal 288. He had trouble with Gibson .208. but who didn’t. I believe it is safe to say the NL had greater pitchers than the AL. Clemente also had a phenomal record in the World Series. He hit safely in all 14 series games he played. He owned the Orioles pitchers in 1971. They, you will remember, all were 20 game winners. As Curt Gowdy said people had the privledge of watching one of the greatest players ever dominate one of the best teams ever. Kaline was no Clemente. He was an excellent player. Clemente was a special player.
If you saw Clemente in Tigers Stadium in the 1971 All Star game you might remember that he homered into the upper deck in straight away center field off Mickey Lolich.
In that same game Reggie Jackson hit a soaring home run that bounced off a roof top power transformer in right field. That’s the homer everyone remembers from that game and it is in every Jackson highlight film. It’s been said that Clemente’s shot travelled further than Jackson’s.
Clemente’s 440 foot shot in Tigers Stadium would not have made it to the warning track in Forbes Field.
If you only saw Clemente at age 37 in the 1971 World Series the natural assumption is: How great was Clemente in his prime? The answer is that he wasn’t noticeably better at age 27 than he was at 37. He was essentially the same player from 1960 to the end of his life in 1972. We can analyze and compare stats and come up with answers, but how close does that really take us? Kaline and Clemente played in different leagues and they faced different pitchers. Overall, Clemente had 1213 at bats against Hall of Fame pitchers and he collected 375 hits for a .309 batting average; eight points below his career batting average of .317. Kaline had a longer career but he had only 453 at bats against Hall of Fame pitchers. He collected 127 hits and hit .280, 17 points below his career batting average of .297. I don’t know what that proves for sure, but I am tempted to say that Kaline had less challenging matchups throughout his career and he was certainly less productive than Clemente was when they faced their league’s best pitchers.
Both Kaline and Clemente were excellent right fielders. Clemente is lauded for having perhaps the best throwing arm ever, but Kaline’s arm was also strong and accurate. One way to settle this would be to ask their contemporaries, “If you were a manager and Clemente and Kaline were on your team, who would you put in right field?â€
if it’s not in the offing, isn’t it out the awning?
Bill says some strange things… must be from too many cans of pork-n-beans back thirty five years ago…
Kaline matched up against some great pitching too. Check the stats…
Great stuff pitchers…
.339 off Whitey Ford
.311 off Billy Pierce
.338 off Mudcat Grant
.325 off Claude Osteen
.330 (with 10 hr in 112 ab) off Jim Kaat
.364 off Mel Stottlemyer
.380 off Bob Lemon
.320 off Bobby Shantz
.381 off Tommy John
.364 off Jim Lonborg
.387 off Vida Blue
.462 off Ned Garver
.389 off Mike McCormick
.383 off Dick Donovan
.462 off Jim Merritt
.421 off Stan Bahnsen
Great Knucklers…
.348 off Hoyt Wilhelm
.393 off Wilbur Wood
.389 off Steve Hamilton
and some he just ate alive…
.548 off Chuck Stobbs (23 for 42)
.500 off Bob Shaw (18 for 36)
Against All Star pitching Kaline hit .324 with 2 hr in 37 ab… better than his RS rates, off those ‘HOF’ NL pitchers. Clemente hit .323 against those ‘weak’ AL pitchers in ASG’s with that 1 hr off Lolich in ‘71.
Clutch… describes them both…
Consider Kaline… here’s just a few…
Pennant races…
‘68… Mayo Smith used Kaline as pinch hitter in game on the line conditions… Al went 5 for 10 with a few walks and one homer… scoring key winning runs including McLain’s 30th win and the pennant clincher 3 days later… ‘68 WS Al hits .379, 11 hits, 2 hr, 8 rbi, the huge clutch hit in game 5, great fielding all 7 games
‘72… Chasing Boston in the AL East race, Kaline finishes September going 22 for 44, as Detroit wins 8 of 10 and edges Boston by 1/2 game…
In his career, he hit 37 for 116 (.319) as a pinch hitter… in leverage situations nearly double RS norm…
Overall (career) in high leverage situations he hit .321 (career .297)
In All-Star play, he hit .324, 9% better than his career average (all composite position player ASG batting averages are around 10% below career averages)
Once again, a baseball analyst who is highly respected, initially doesn’t give Kaline credit for being a tremendous player, and says he coasted??? for much of his career??? Are you serious??? Then kind of flips to say Kaline was great after coming up with the win shares. All anyone has to do is realize that next to Mantle and the 600 or so games he missed from injuries, Kaline missed 400 games from injuries, always 20 to 60 games a year. From 1956 to his last season, Kaline played in over 150 games once in 1961. Kaline’s only weakness as a player was his inability to stay healthy. This cost Kaline at least 4 if not 5 years of the 30 homerun 100 rbi seasons. Kaline was just a shade below Mantle, Aaron, Mays, and frank Robinson in hitting, and only clemente compares to Kaline in the outfield. Nobody, Nobody ran on Al Kaline.
Kaline throwing arm was the most Accurate of all outfielders all time.
Kaline was by a considerable margin the better rightfielder than Clemente. Quicker, better instincts, and much more sure-handed. It is often forgotten that in at least three entire seasons, Kaline was Detroit’s regular centerfielder in vast Briggs/Tiger Stadium. I don’t believe Clemente was ever trusted to play centerfield in Forbes. This is going to rankle Clemente fans, but in his peak hitting years, from about 1961-1966, Clemente wasn’t even the best rightfielder in his league. Johnny Callison was.
Just want to be clear – Kaline was by far the superior DEFENSIVE rightfielder than Clemente, as was Callison from about ‘61-’66.
Still – and as a Tiger fan, it hurts to say this – I’d rather have Clemente than Kaline.
Kaline was like a modern player in that he just could not or would not stay healthy. This fact likely robbed Detroit of at least one pennant — 1967 — and who knows where they may have finished in ‘62.
It kills me to imagine Kaline’s numbers had he not broken his collarbone making that diving catch in Yankee Stadium on May 26, 1962. Thirty-five, 40 homers?