WB: Clemente vs. Kaline
Posted: April 1st, 2008 | Filed under: Baseball | 70 Comments »
First impressions
I feel confident that most people would say Clemente was better than Kaline. “Not to take anything away from Kaline,” says a friend of mine, “but Roberto Clemente was the best player I ever saw.” I’m guessing entirely, but I would say 94% of the people polled outside of Detroit would say Clemente was the better player.
What the statistics say (Well, now it gets interesting).
Roberto Clemente was a right-handed hitter with moderate power who had exactly 3,000 hits. He died at age 38 in a plane crash. He was on his way to bringing food and supplies to Nicaragua, which had just been hit with a savage earthquake.
Al Kaline was a right-handed hitter with a little bit better than moderate power who had 3007 hits. He retired at 39 after a year as a designated hitter.
Clemente hit .317 for his career. He won four batting titles.
Kaline hit .297 for his career. He won one batting title. That was when he was 20.
Huge advantage Clemente.
BUT …
Kaline had a .376 on-base percentage. Clemente’s OBP was .359.
Kaline had a .480 slugging percentage. Clemente’s was .475.
Kaline walked more than twice as often and struck out less than Clemente.
Kaline’s career OPS+ was 134. Clemente’s was 130.
Huge, huge advantage Kaline.
BUT …
Clemente had perhaps the greatest outfield arm in baseball history. He won 12 Gold Gloves, many of those on the strength of his arm, and he had 260 assists in right field.
Then again, Kaline was a brilliant outfielder himself, a 10-time Gold Glove winner, one of those specifically in center. He did not have Clemente’s arm — who does? — but he had a terrific arm himself, and once threw out two runners at home in the same inning.
Moderate advantage Clemente.
BUT …
Kaline had more home run juice. He played in about about 400 more games than Clemente, and he played home games in a better home run park. Still, he hit 399 home runs to Clemente’s 240. Clemente hit 20+ homers only three times in his career. Kaline hit 20+ homers nine times.
Advantage Kaline.
BUT …
Clemente was a more spectacular player. He had 166 triples in his career for instance, more than twice as many as Kaline. He had the special arm. He played with a certain style; people idolized him. Teammates idolized him. He led the Pirates to two World Series championships.
Kaline was consistent. A rock. He was an All-Star virtually every year but he never won an MVP award (Clemente won in ‘66). He reached double digits in homers for 20 straight seasons, but he never hit 30. After his 21st year, he drove in 100 runs once, but he drove in 80 or more six times. He scored 100 or more runs once, but he scored 80 or more seven times. This was, to be fair, during some very down offensive seasons, and Kaline put up some terrific OPS+ numbers. But the feeling about him was not awe but respect. He did play on one World Series winner, in 1968, but was a part-time player … he had 327 at-bats.
Apparent advantage: Clemente.
What a great person says:
“I saw Kaline most of his career. Saw Clemente only in All-Star game or World Series. Kaline had high degree of consistent play. A fine human being. But I think Clemente goes beyond that because of his humanity which led to his death.”
– Ernie Harwell
An Essay
I’m infatuated with Roberto Clemente. And I know very little about Al Kaline. I doubt this makes me very different from most baseball fans. I’ve mentioned this here before — I believe it was while reading an essay by Nick Hornby that I heard about a prose poet whose poems would be everything they could think of (off the top of the head) about some person or some city or whatever. So …
Roberto Clemente
Born Puerto Rico
Had a fabulous arm.
Was signed by the Brooklyn Dodgers.
Branch Rickey drafted him for the Pirates.
Was called “Bob” on his early baseball cards.
Moody and proud.
Considered hypochondriac in early years.
Ferocious bad ball hitter. Pitchers couldn’t figure him out.
Wasn’t especially fast, but ran bases with abandon.
Doubles became triples.
Hit with heavy bat.
Hit .300 every year of the 1960s. Except crazy ‘68.
Often had nightmares. Couldn’t sleep at all.
Stood up for Latin players. Was as proud and fierce as Jackie.
Could not say no to people in need.
Wore No. 21. Some want that retired for every club.
There’s a lot more, but you get the idea. Now …
Al Kaline
Didn’t play in minor leagues.
Consistent. Mr. Tiger.
Hit 399 home runs in career.
From Baltimore? Is that right? Or Washington?
Something about his batting stance. Relaxed, maybe?
Wore No. 6. Good consistent number.
Made lots of All-Star teams.
Winner (I think) of first Roberto Clemente Award.
And that’s really about it. I suppose if I thought longer and harder, I might remember more about Kaline, but it’s more likely that I’ll remember some other details about Clemente. The thing is, I never saw either of them play. It’s possible I saw Kaline in his final year or two, but if I did it left no mark on my memory. I do vaguely remember the day Roberto Clemente died, but it could be one of those imagined memories that you have because you think you SHOULD remember. I was 5 years old.
In any case, because I have no actual memories of either man as players, all my knowledge has come from reading, from watching old highlights, from talking with players and fans from that time. And, as such, Clemente has been an overpowering presence. Maybe it’s because he died young, and he died heroically. I read David Maraniss’ excellent book about him on the day it came out. I’ve met with his wife and family in Puerto Rico. I’ve been to the Roberto Clemente museum. In my younger days, when I collected baseball cards, I spent too much money for a 1961 Clemente card — that was more or less my highest honor for players I never saw. Over time, I bought a Sandy Koufax card, a Bob Feller card, a Herb Score card, a Stan Musial card, a Roberto Clemente, a Willie Mays, a Frank Howard — these were my father’s heroes.
And Kaline? I just don’t recall having any feelings at all about him. That will sound more negative than I mean it; I feel certain that I have long been aware of Kaline as a great player. I just never felt any curiosity about him.
I think this is probably not uncommon … it seems like Clemente was a player who demanded reverence. That arm was not human. He seemed to play the game on the edge. He carried himself with this regal pride. He was not just one of the great players of his generation, he was one of those rare players who WAS his generation, it is impossible, I imagine, to think of 1960s baseball without seeing Clemente swinging at a pitch at his head and cracking it the other way, into the gap, then running the bases, a blur of black and gold. It’s impossible to think of 1960s baseball without seeing him throwing out a runner with a perfect one-bounce throw throw to third, the baseball hitting the dirt, digging in, spinning forward, leaping into the third baseman’s glove at precisely the right second.
And Kaline was just … well, he was just there every day. It’s a different thing.
The strange part is that that the older I get, the more I admire the Al Kalines of the world. Because, I suppose, that’s how I see my father. He could not be Roberto Clemente. No, he had to go to the factory every morning, up at 5:30 a.m., dress in the dark, get in the rusted out Chevy Nova, drive over those Cleveland potholes (some large enough to be great lakes) to get to Solon and a long day’s work. Sons idolize their fathers, of course. And the older I get, the more I do, the more I find myself drawn not to the spectacular, but to the person who delivers every day, who makes all the plays in the outfield without great acclaim, who fights through injuries and continues to perform with consistency — someone you can count on every single day.
Batting average is not a fulfilling statistic but, here is might say something …
Al Kaline vs. lefties: .305 average.
Al Kaline vs. rightes: .290 average.
Al Kaline at home: .301 average.
Al Kaline on the road: .288 average.
Al Kaline by month: .291 in April, .290 in May, .296 in June, .297 in July, .284 in August and .311 in September.
I love that he he hit 29 homers twice, but never hit 30. I love that he finished second in the MVP twice (and third once) but never won it. I love that he finished second in three batting races and third twice more — this seems to say something about his character. He finished second in RBIs twice, but never first. He finished in the Top 5 in runs four times, but never led the league.
Kaline finished with 399 home runs and did not swing for the fences — or return — to hit 400.
He refused a $100,000 salary in 1971 because he did not feel like he had a good enough year in 1970.
He also took some abuse in Detroit for not “bringing Detroit a title” in the early part of the 1960s. He did not like it. He even talked about being traded. But Kaline stayed, and of course he was brilliant in his one World Series, hitting .379 with two homers and eight RBIs in the seven game victory.
Clemente represented dreams. Kaline represented the realities of things — he hurt, he struggled, he did not get much acclaim, he was blamed for things beyond his control, and yet he delivered year after year after year.
* * *
I am super-duper excited — as I always get whenever I figure something out on this crazy Internet. As you might see up top, right hand corner, I just figured out how to put the polls on this site. So now, to vote for Kaline or Clemente (or any of the future polls) you can stay right here and not have to go to some other site. I’m thrilled.
And, of course, at some point it will all fall under the Pozcars umbrella. As will all of society!
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If this wasn’t written so well, I’d question why a blog post comparing two ballplayers from the 60s has any revelance at all.
But it’s your blog.
How about Danny Manning and why he wasn’t named one of the top 25 on ESPN? Or any kind of a Kansas post? There’s some big event going on this weekend. Maybe you’ve noticed.
Clemente’s SLG was .475*.
Beautiful post. Got me thinking about who I would compare them to who is playing today. I would say Clemente is like Vlad Guerrero. You want to see the ball hit to him with that rookie speedster tagging up on third. You want to see him hit. You really wish he could stay healthy so that he could play every game. Vlad, I think, is like Clemente in that he is worth the price of admission by himself.
I had trouble coming up with someone like Kaline, the closest is Jim Edmonds or Moises Alou. Alou is the better fit, but Edmonds comes up closer with offensive statistics. Moises was never the defensive player that Kaline, Clemente or Vlad was, but he was consistent, he was going to go out and get hits, usually one, maybe two everyday. And you always know that your team is a better team with Alou on it.
Btw, Vlad is only 32. Man, I hope he can play another 6 years like Clemente.
I voted for Kaline, purely on some kind of contrarian instinct. The numbers, to me, were that indistinguishable. But upon reflection, it seems to me that a case could be made like this: Kaline was very good at nearly all areas necessary to be a successful major league outfielder, as was Clemente. Kaline was better in some areas, Clemente others. However, I’ve never heard (nor do the numbers bear out) that Kaline was the best, ever, at anything. I have heard that Clemente had the best outfield arm, ever. Although defensive numbers, particularly those compiled some time ago, are notoriously slippery, and although assists alone don’t necessarily do justice to arm strength, 27 outfield assists in 1969 — his fifteenth season, when presumably at least two or three people were aware that he could throw a little — suggests to me that he very well might have had the best outfield arm, ever. To me, that gives Clemente an edge. So I want my vote back.
I wish they would put out a DVD of Clemente’s best throws.
Also, OPS+ may not be fair because the NL was better than the AL for much of their careers.
P.S. I’m all for them retiring the number 21 on Clemente’s 75th birthday, for one thing the number is high enough not to be a problem. I would never be for retiring a single digit number, too many greats shared those numbers.
Why do people keep asking me to choose between realism and idealism? Whether in baseball or politics, isn’t it crucial to have both? Baseball at its best is represented by these two men, together, not one instead of the other.
I followed their two growing up, and my memory is that while they were playing, they were probably considered about equal. Both were overshadowed by more prominent superstars in their leagues, both were considered great players who were closely identified with their teams. It was only after Clemente’s spectacular World Series followed by his martyr-like death that he moved into the same realm as Mays, Aaron and Mantle.
Are we trying to decide who is the better person or the better ballplayer? As much as I hate to disagree with Ernie Harwell, getting killed in a plane crash delivering humantarian aid doesn’t make you a better ballplayer. A better person? Sure…
In the ’60’s I lived in West Philadelphia and used to take the bus to New York for weekend series between the Yanks and Tigers. I was at Yankee Stadium in 1962 the day Kaline broke his collarbone on a diving catch in the OF. He only played 100 games in 1962 and had only 398 AB, but it was one of the seasons he hit 29 HR and he had 94 RBI that season. Most of his improved power that season was apparently caused by pulling the ball more when he came back after the injury. The following season he went right back to his regular swing. I watched Kaline every chance I could, though I was living in a NL city from 1960-69 and I don’t remember ever seeing the Pirates. I’ve always been a Tiger fan and had more interest in AL games. I went to Connie Mack Stadium occasionally, but the only visiting team I remember seeing was the Cubs. Since I don’t remember ever seeing Clemente, I won’t vote. In the New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract, James rates Clemente 8th and Kaline 11th among all-time right fielders.
I share Joe’s passion for Clemente, even down to spending too much for one of his baseball cards. In my case, it was $75 for the 1960 Topps “Bob” Clemente. Most money I’ve ever dropped on a single card; probably the most I ever will. And I don’t regret it one bit.
I went to a Sonics game once where Kaline was in attendance and was introduced to the crowd as an all-time baseball great. My girlfriend had never heard of him, and when she saw his name on the scoreboard, she said, “Is that a joke?”
I’d never noticed before that day that ALKALINE is a pretty funny name.
In 1968 I was at a game at Tiger Stadiumwhich is best remembered for a fight between Dick McAlliffe and Tommy John. At one point my father called for Kaline to hit a home run. With my 15yr old logic I replied Al was washed up. After the 450′ homer past the flagpole in center, I changed my mind I won’t repeat my dad’s comment.
What can I say – although I’m not from Detroit, I’m from across the river. Growing up watching the Tigers, Al was the colour man for their tv broadcasts, and he was the single straightest straight man ever. George Kell did the play-by-play, who was also pretty straight, but at least had the drawl to add a little flavour to the broadcast.
One of my favourite moments was a game where a fan ran onto the field and up to Kirk Gibon in right field, and this was the bluest George ever got, as he yelled out in surprise: “Fer chrissakes, somebody help Gibby!!” (as if Gibson would need help from anyone taking care of himself). I think Al Kaline was speechless for about 10 minutes after that. I also think George Kell apologizes daily for that outburst…
On Baseball Prospectus’ DT cards, they have Clemente down for 133.5 WARP1, 127.6 WARP2, and 128.8 WARP3 for his career.
Kaline: 128.5, 110.8, 112.3 respectively.
Bill James’ Win Shares
Clemente: 377 Career, 25.10 per 162 games
Kaline: 443 Career, 25.32
I should not James ranks Clemente ahead of Kaline.
note*
I was surprised to see the numbers side-by-side. I follow baseball very closely, and as I look back at a comparison like this, I wonder if there is a larger “blindspot” for people my age (several months ahead of you, Joe) regarding 60’s hitters. The serious deadening of offensive numbers through the majority of the 60’s seems to have also deadened their “fame” among us who were too young to really remember them, but were regaled with stories of the “really great” ones our parents and grandparents enjoyed. I knew Willie was an all-time great, and Mickey was one-of-a-kind, but I had no idea Kaline had those numbers, and wasn’t really aware that Frank Robinson was the #4 HR hitter of all time (for a long time), until a friend “won” a free promotional signed ball in the late 90’s. Seriously. If you’d put me on the spot, I might have guessed Frank…but I would not have been certain of it before he won the signed ball.
Who were the “great” 60’s players I knew from my early youth? Brooks Robinson, Bob Gibson, Roger Maris (and Mickey as well, as the subplot), Denny McClain, and Roberto Clemente. Guys whose fame outgrew their actual performances…
I’m not sure if this is a general truth for all, or something tied to our particular generation? No idea, really…
Joe
Clemente’s slugging average was .475. I don’t think Kaline had a huge advantage in the OBP/SLG/OPS dept.
Regardless – beautiful article, thank you. I really enjoyed it.
Unlike many weighing in on this subject I did watch Roberto play. In fact, as a then seven year old growing up in the ‘Burg I followed his every move. Even today his B&W 8×10 framed glossy hangs proudly in my office. Why? Because he was an inspiration as a ball player and more importantly as a man. Sure he could get cranky at times…just like you and me. Oh, but to see a perfect strike nail a baserunner from 300 feet. Now we’re talking. OBP, SLG, OPS — these modern and valid statistical measurements weren’t a part of the game. What mattered was production and Clemente was clutch. ‘Nuff said. Ariba lives.
Their lines neutralized to an average park in a 162 game, 750 run environment:
Kaline: .310/.390/.500, 2061 RC
Clemente: .327/.369/.489, 1789 RCs
I had the pleasure to see Clemente play several times in person, and Kaline once (although actually twice because it was a doubleheader)
My take on the two is that Clemente played with more drama, and did have a certain aura about him. However, I think his legendary status grew due to the circumstances of his death.
Kaline hit one of the hardest line drives I ever witnessed, at the old Comiskey Park, and I saw Clemente make the best throw from right field (old Busch Stadium) to nail a runner at third that I have ever seen in 40-plus years of following baseball.
Bottom line, I respect both, but give me vote to Roberto.
Between Kaline being the second-best baseball player from Baltimore, and memories of what Clemente did to the Orioles in 1971 (genetic; I wasn’t born until 1983…), I know who I’m voting for!
I’m too young to have seen either of them play (both were already in the Hall when I was born), so I went with the numbers and your article. Their offensive stats are fairly similar, but Kaline struck out 210 times less and hit in a couple fewer double plays despite playing in 400 more games. And Clemente was an everyday player his entire career, which lasted from his age 20 season until his age 37 season. If you look at the same range of seasons for Kaline, his offensive numbers are that much better in comparison.
I think one thing that works against Kaline is that he was so good, so young and when he didn’t put up the same kind of numbers every year afterward, it made us think that he wasn’t as great as our expectations were of him.
The guy was a hell of a ball player and could do everything well on the field. You couldn’t get a thing by him in RF and to tell the truth, he had great range and a great arm but he didn’t show it off like a lot of guys do. You just knew you weren’t going to run on him.
As a hitter, you never wanted to see him up with a chance to beat your team. His judgement running the bases was excellent and you never saw him get thrown out. His all around baseball skills and instincts were better than all but the very best in the game and for a long time.
The injuries took their toll as well. He always went all out and wasn’t afraid of running into a wall or to make the diving catch.
On the other hand, Clemente didn’t do much his first few years except for 56. His lack of English skills made it hard to interview him and he always seemed to have some minor ailment or another that kept him off the field. He came across as sullen and uncommunitive in those early years, only later hitting his stride as he began to develop into the skills he had.
While Kaline was special, he wasn’t showy. Clemente was special and showy. Always showing off his arm, even when he didn’t have to and adopting the basket catch that also became one of his trademarks.
It didn’t help much either that during much of the same time they were in their prime that a guy named Aaron was playing the same position. By comparison, neither could withstand the scrutiny.
When you boil it down, you wouldn’t hurt yourself having either guy on your team. When they were on the field, both were competitors who gave everything they had and both wound up in Cooperstown where they deserve to be.
Having seen both play, I’d say flip a coin and know which ever way it came up, you’d win.
There was no shame for Al Kaline being the second best player in the American League behind Mickey Mantle during his great career. The reason Kaline never hit 30 homeruns in a season or had more 100 runs and 100 rbi seasons is because he was always getting injured playing his all out style. Kaline played over 150 games once after 1956. Fractured cheekbone in ‘59, broken collarbone in ‘62, leg and knee problems in ‘63, more of same health problems until off season surgery after ‘65 season, broken hand in ‘67, broken arm in ‘68, and nagging injuries his last few years playing. Kaline missed about 400 game in those years from ‘54 to ‘74. If Clemente was a 10 on arm strength, Kaline was a 9.9 and if Kaline was a 10 on accuracy, clemente was a 9.9. Their fielding and throwing is really equal imo. Am I partial to Kaline?, Yes, I saw him every year from ‘54 as a 7 year old to his last year. Kaline was as smooth as Joe DiMaggio, making even a difficult play look easy. He was spectacular in a dignified way. Smooth as silk and an ultimate team player. Kaline did what was right for the game situation, not swinging for a homerun every at bat, a professional hitter. Both great players no question, but for me Kaline was better in a close vote.
Clemete=Vlad wiout the HR power
Kaline=Chipper jones wi out the power
this is an offensive comparison for the youngsters who dont know Kaline and Clemente-
Another way would be to say they are like twins who become different in subtle ways yet are still the same. Both Quality HOF players who played wi passion, dignity and class. Nice article
I think of Vlad as the modern Clemente too, although I’m too young to have seen Clemente play.
I’ve been lucky to attend the last couple All-Star Games. One of the highlights each year, without a doubt, is just standing at the cage and watching Vlad take BP up close.
If I could see any player in the league play in person every day, Vlad would be my guy.
This is a great essay and I have a new appreciation for Kaline.
I’m sure some posters here discount the value of style, charisma, drama, etc. But as a fan of the game I think they count for something.
If you could somehow bring back either Clemente or Kaline in their prime to play one full season for your favorite team, who would you pick? Who would bring you more joy as a baseball fan? Who would give you more anticipation coming to the ballpark? For me it’s Clemente, hands-down.
Look, Clemente was a great player, but there seems to be a little too much hagiography around him, what with the early, humanitarian-type death and the fantastic arm.
Yes, I am biased, since Al Kaline was my Dad’s favorite player as he grew up in Michigan (and I sponsored Kaline one year on BB-Ref as a B-day present for my Dad). I’ll take Kaline on my team any day. Despite the arm, I think Kaline was a better defensive player than Clemente.
I love the Pozcars, and the intent of expanding them unto all realms of the universe. But I can’t vote on this one. They were both great players.
Hmmm…huge halo effect for Clemente, because of both the arm and the tragic death. I wonder whether the difference in their OF styles–steady vs. spectacular–might say something about Kaline being, maybe, better fundamentally – kind of in the way Andruw Jones is better than Jim Edmonds, but has spent less time on the highlight reels?
I’d be curious to see how the results of a poll before reading the article versus one after reading the article would have turned out. I’m guessing that the percentage for Kaline would go up 10-20%. More and more I’m learning the increased respect you have for your father as you get older. Particularly once you have your own kids and go through the same things he did.
The more I read this great post, the less I wanted to choose. By the end, it seemed silly to pick one as better. I can’t deny Clemente, and if we’re picking, he’s my pick. But the world could use a few more Al Kalines. My problem with picking a better, is it’s near impossible to see the one you don’t pick as lacking. Of course they were both lacking- so was Mother Theresa, but they were both great. I prefer to just focus on the great.
Clemente is one of the most overrated players in MLB history. He was a very good player and a HOFer. But, he’s still quite overrated. I can’t count how many people I’ve heard say things like “He’s one of the greatest all around players of all time.” It’s just not true.
Kaline can’t be rated higher than Clemente because it would be considered anti-Latino. Remember the righteous indignation when Clem was not named to the all-time MLB team?
Best thing I’ve read today.
Thanks for the great article. As a kid growing up in Connecticut for some reason I was a Detroit Tigers fan. In those days there were not many opportunities to see players like Kaline or Clemente play except in the post season or the occasional Game of the Week. As a kid I chose Kaline to be my favorite player but to this day I have been struggling to figure out how good a player he really was. I was 8 years old in 1968 but I remember that World Series very clearly but that also was near the end of Kaline’s career. For a player that good whose career wasn’t that long ago it is odd that most fans know so little about him. There is a book written about the last season of Tiger Stadium by Tom Stanton called the “Final Season” and it talks about how revered Kaline was in Detroit. I think Clemente was in the same boat as Kaline but the ‘71 World Series got him more recognition. Since this writer is based in Kansas City I suspect that fans from throughout the Midwest understand how hard it was for players from their teams to get recognition from that era. The New York media bias and lack of television exposure caused a lot of great players to be underappreciated. Given all that I’m not sure I can choose between the two of them. They both would have been a lot more famous if they had played in either New York or Boston but I maybe not as loved as they were playing in their respective cities.
I was 14 growing up in Pittsburgh in “56″ when Clemente came to town………. for a number of years most of the Pgh. sportswriters were mostly negative and would print his comments using phoenics……… They seemed to resent him as a black ballplayer……… back then their was alot of predigous going around……… it was an all white team except for right field…. Clemente went thru a tough time with the language barrier and when Murtaugh became Mgr. their was alot of friction between the two…… he accused #21 of jaking it…….. funny how Roberto ended up playing more games then any Buc before or since….. Murtaugh didn’t know what he had in Clemente……….. I remember listening on the radio to just about all the games and even seeing a few at Forbes field…… I have never seem a better right fielder…. he would run a ball down and throw to 3rd or home on one bounce or more likely the ball never touched the ground…
never seen a better arm ….. back then the NL had the better players/pitchers……. Forbes field was one of the most spacious fields in the league. the center field wall was so deep that they used to park the batting cage out there and it was in play….. Roberto knew as soon as he first came that the fences were to far………. so he became a line drive hitter and got alot of doubles & triples… What I remember the most and I’m quoting one of the sportwriters who I can’t remember, but can put things into words much better than I…..” YOU COULDN’T TAKE YOUR EYES OFF OF HIM” ……… I would look at Clemente in RF instead of the batter……. I missed many pitches…… like most kids he became my hero because of being such a great BB player ………. after I got somewhat older it changed to: because he was such a great person
Clemente was the best by the mile, Kaline was just a good player.
Well, my computer password is roberto21, so I voted a long time ago. Anyhow, a story:
The Pirates were trying to sign a young pitcher who had been born in Puerto Rico and grew up in New York. The GM, Joe Brown, thought, “What could be better to close the deal than to let the kid talk to Clemente?”
The meeting was arranged and Clemente and the kid started talking in Spanish. Brown thought, “Great. This deal is done.”
What he didn’t know was that Clemente was saying, “How much did they offer you to sign?”; “That’s not enough.”; and “”Say ‘no’. They’ll offer you more next year.”
And that’s just what happened. And the kid was John Candelaria.
As a fresh-faced college grad in the mid 90’s, I worked for the company that owns the Tigers and Red Wings. On some errand at the old Tiger Stadium, I was waiting in the front office lobby on a game day…maybe 5 or 10 other people were there.
The door opens and Kaline walks in, tall, impeccably dressed, perfect posture, a huge mane of white hair. The 60+ year old security guard said: “Hey, King!” Kaline gives him a nod as he walked through the lobby.
This is a terribly over-used cliche, but the man’s presence stopped everyone in the room.
2 of the most underated RF of all time and this will show my bias “the great one” as the “gunner”[Bob Prince the Bucs play by play man] did play in the better league at the time[check the all-star game record]. Yet both played in an era where the pitcher was dominant [gibson,koufax,drysdale,marechal]. Raise the mound,deaden the ball would todays hitters do as well? Growing up I had the pleasure of seeing both of these great players and men play in person Al Kaline in Cleveland,who had a pretty good RF in Rocky Colavito and Roberto at forbes field & three rivers. I submit two votes here,my father’s[who is no longer able to give his own]—-Al Kaline and mine ROBERTO CLEMENTE
Can’t seem to vote any more. No probs.
Clemente gets kudos for his humanitarianism, and was indeed a great player. But did I detect some poster suggesting that Kaline should die in a plane crash in order to be fairly compared as a ballplayer? I hope not.
Anyway, I have ‘the Line’ on my best 5 players of the second half of the 20th century, along with Mays, Aaron, Robinson, and Mantle. Roberto is not in the top 50. So you know where my vote is.
Comparing statistics is useful, but there is a lot more to it. Who meant more to his team beyond his personal stats? You didn’t run on Kaline. Is he the only outfielder to through out two runners at the plate in the same inning? He wins games just by being there and intimidating the other team, even if his stat lines says he was 0 for. And like several posters have pointed out, if he hadn’t been injured, several of those 2nd place seasons would have been 1st place seasons, easily. And Detroit would quite possibly have played in more World Series (though the d*mn Yankees did have some pretty overwhelming teams during Al’s prime).
Clemente was showy and crowd pleasing. That’s important to a team too, but for getting bums on seats, not winning games. But for him to have similar career stats to Kaline while playing mostly uninjured isn’t good enough to rank him in the upper-echelon of top players. I do rank him as an superior defensive player though. You can’t get 12 golden gloves and be a hack. But he didn’t have the accuracy and distance that Kaline had. You might think twice about going home against Clemente, but the thought didn;t even enter your mind against Kaline. And Clemente could go into a sulk and disappear for week. Kaline brought it every day.
For this comparison I have to vote for Al Kaline, as I would for any comparison of him with any outfielder since WWII bar Willie Mays, who is quite possibly the best individual player of all time in my book.
Obviously, both are deserving HOFers, and yes, the National League had superior talent during that era. But Kaline was a superior offensive player, slightly lower BA not withstanding. Very different hitters — Clemente was a free swinger, didn’t walk much, a good “bad ball” hitter. Kaline had a classically sweet swing, one of the most beautiful in the game’s history.
Not much Youtube on Kaline, but for a taste of his throwing arm, check out the following (@ :25 mark), holding Lou Brock on third in the ‘68 series:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xp_y8EJeOac&eurl=http://apps.facebook.com/youtubebox/video.asp?uvid=3711301
RC was a superb ballplayer no doubt. I do feel he has been mythologized a little due to his tragic death in a plane crash peforming a humanitarian act of goodwill. We all have our bias, and I make no pretense in my unabashed support of Mr. Tiger Al Kaline. As a small child I saw him play at Tiger Stadium, and have his autograpg, to this day, I treasure it. To say who was better is a tricky thing, but look at the numbers, and remember how many games Kaline missed in a great career, even with his constant injuries. The two were both spectacular, and except for Clemente’s higher lifetime average, Kaline is better in really all other offensive stats. Defensively they were both fantastic, Clemente was more of a highlight guy, with some great acrobatic moves in right field. Kaline had a cannon in right field and may have been the steadier guy with many fewer errors in the outfield. When all is said and done they are even with Kaline being a bit more steady, with slightly better numbers in offensive production, and was every bit as good defensively, with fewer errors. My vote is for Mr. Tiger , Big Al.
I saw both Clemente and Kaline play. Clemente was very talented, flamboyant yet sometimes erratic. Kaline was like a swiss mechanical watch.. Every player in the AL knew not to test Kaline’s arm and when they thought they had their chance to take that extra bas, number 6 would unleash his cannon. It was like watching poured milk being shot out of a howitzer, and the accuracy was almost always pinpoint. Stengel’s 1st and 3rd base coaches were taught to play it ultra conservative with Kalines arm. Clemente in his own right had a gun and he was a pleasure to watch. They both were great hitters. Kaline was subject to many injuries which certainly stopped a frew 35 HR and 100+ RBI years. Clemente was without question one of the greatest bad ball hitters. Kaline was clutch and timely. RC was electrifying. I give a slight nod to Kaline, although both were great ball players. With regards to throwing arms, I will say Kaline, Colavito and Clemente were all in a league of their own. Colavito unfortunately didnt have the accuracy of Clemente or Kaline, but boy could he throw
I’m a lifelong Pirate fan and saw Clemente play many many years. RC was special, and it was a privledge to watch this ball player play day in and day out. Now, on the other hand, I must have watched a dozen games at Tiger Stadium, and I will tell you, Kaline was phenomenal. Runners just would not take that extra base, and as Mr. Bernstein so elouquently stated, I do remember that howitzer. The guy could hit, field, throw ………. he had it all. it was a shamehe got injured so often. I have to give the nod to Kaline also, albeit RC was definitely one of my all time favorites. With regards to Colavitos arm, nobody could throw like Rocky…..not Clemente or Kaline. Rocky unfortunately didn’t have the accuracy these two possessed. Dizzy Dean and Colavito were know to have been able to throw the ball 420+ feet on the fly. Mind boggling!!
I think in regards to the Clemente and Kaline question it would go like this. The fan might very well choose Clemente, and the manager would most probably choose Kaline. You couldn’t lose either way. What great ball players!!
What a difficult choice!! I saw them both play in their prime live. I like the electrifying/swiss watch analogy in comparing their two styles.Kaline had more power and was a timely hitter. Clemente had a better batting average. Clemente was sizzling while Kaline was low key. I rate Kaline higher defensively, and consider him to be the best defensive right fielder post World War II. Comparing their arms, it was a coin flip. They both had phenomenal rockets. I am a lifelong National League fan, so it’s a bit hard to say this but MINISCULE EDGE: KALINE
I’m from Cleveland, and started watching baseball in 1952. I travelled to many big league ballparks to watch games and was a fan and still is one to this very day.. They both are worthy of being in the HOF, without question. I saw Kaline nail out Leon Wagner at the plate, trying to tag out on about a 360 foot fly ball to dead right field. It was aired out and didn’t bounce, and Daddy wags went in on full jets. If I remember correctly kaline homered that game. I loved watching that guy play. Pure class and a complete player. I saw Clemente at old Forbes field and many times on the television set. I was a fan of RC, but that game in Cleveland when Kaline threw out Daddy Wags will always stick in to my mind. My kids talked about Jesse Barfields arm. great arm!! Yet, I always tell them, you had to see Kaline, Clemente, Colavito ( of course!!) and Carl Furillo throw. These guys were a notch up. EDGE: KALINE
I saw Kaline play in Anaheim and saw Clemente play at Dodger stadium. Clemente was more exciting, Kaline was so consistently at a high level in every aspect of his game. I’m a firm believer they were on par as throwers, yet Kaline appeared to be a better fielder. Clemente had a higher BA and Kaline had him in the other hitting stats. I gues I’m more of a classicist, so I go with Al Kaline. I think all Pittsburgh people choose Clemente and all Detroit and Southern Ontario fans choose Kaline. But, around the nation, we true old time fans are pretty well split on this one. I’m from LA. I saw Koufax and Drysdale day in and day out. We know quality players. Kaline got injured much too much,but he was the best defensive right fielder since WW II, and a great hitter. Clemente was a damn good ballplayer, but my I’m adament with my choice in Al Kaline. He was the second best player in the American League for 10 straight years. Mickey Mantle dominated that top spot. So, as much as I liked RC, Im an AK man
Is this the not the lamest attempt of Sabremetrics to try and hide ‘The Great One’; By introducing comparisons of much weaker ballplayers with similar stats. Simply stated, as nice a guy as Kaline was he himself has been quoted as saying he was certainly not in Clemente territory. Only Mays can make that claim. Only in America can the best defensive player of all time coupled with the best batting success against hall of fame pitching not be considered amongst the best. Clemente’s arm alone is the single rarest action in the history of this game;yet we reward lazy fly balls that happen to just carry over this artificial thing called a ‘fence’. If Clemente’s line drives get to the wall in 2 seconds and the lazy 310ft. homer takes 4-5 who has hit the ball with MORE POWER?
Kaline actuall was a right handed batter and the short right field porch in Detroit is not where he hit these so called 310 foot homeruns ( in actuality the overhang was 315 feet!!l
I’m from Atlanta Georgia, been watching ball since 1949, and if you categorize Kaline as just a nice guy, then unfortunately, you are overlooking skills you see rarely see. Minimizing his cannon like arm, defensive fielding skills and his excellence at the plate, lets me think Stephen is more into mythology than actual baseball. RC was a great player no doubt, but it is so obvious you have never seen Kaline play. You sound like a Pittsburgh home towner just plugging your local hero. You have no idea regarding how humble AK was, and no idea of the fear he instilled in American League players just on the volition of his arm. Stephen, major league baseball stretches out across the state lines of PA …………………. and I don’t think you’d know what Kaline looked like nor the ability of this great HOF. There are many oldtimers like myself who consider Kaline to be the third best post war rightfielder all around, and the best defensively. Believe me, it’s a long line andI’m not even a Detroiter, but from the great state of Georgia.
If you are going to compare the two Mr. Widdoes, best you be an educated baseball fan and not some jingoistic ‘hometowner’. True baseball fans know the LINE’s skills, and managers at the time, knew Kaline could just kill them with his bat and possibly the greatest arm in the history of the game. Once again ranking arms were 1) Colavito 2) Kaline 3) Furillo and sorry to say 4) Clemente with Jesse Barfield rounding it out at number 5.
I choose Al Kaline over RC, and that is not easy choice
Best all around 7 post war rightfielders: 1) Aaron 2) Robinson 3) Kaline 4) R Jackson 5) R Clemente 6) Tony Gywnn 7) Dwight Evans
Best 3 RFs defensively: 1) Kaline 2) Dwight Evans 3)Roberto Clemente
Best RF throwing arms: 1) Colavito 2) Kaline 3) Furillo 4) Clemente 5) Reggie Smith 6) Dwight Evans 7) Jesse Barfield
Roger Maris 9) Dave Parker 10) Jay Buehner
Great list Cornell!! What about Vlad ???? He is easily a top 5 in the arm category. By the way what is with Colavitos arm……………..seems everyone raves about it!!??
AK or RC?
I too must go with Al Kaline. After watching them both play, I’ll go with the swiss watch over the electrifing inconsistencies.
arent we forgetting musial. ………. he is certainly above kali ne and clemente all around…………. .331!!!
I too was very fond of both these players as a boy. I started watching them closely in 1966.
Clemente – flashy, brilliant, impaitient, incandescent
Kaline: steady, patient, and more valuable then Clemente.
Lots of people have tossed around counting stats and rate stats. So I’m going for the ones that are less common, but first – the fielding.
Fielding:
Kaline is widely cited as a superb fielder – see David Falkners book “Nine Sides of the Diamond” featuring stories on folks such as Sadaharu Oh. But includes this quote “Kaline was a great defensive outfielder for the same reason Carl Furillo was – his natural gifts became an extension of his thinking.”
It should be noted that Kaline played 477 games in CF and played them at well above average CF levels, winning a GG, and starting in CF in several AS games. Kaline also played CF in the ‘68 WS when he went .379/.400/.655 with 11 hits, 2 2B, 2 HR’s, 8 RBI against the Cards in Gibson’s legendary ‘68 season.
Clemete fielded poorly in his 53 career games in CF. His mighty ‘71 WS found him outdoing Kaline in the 3 rate stats – .414/.452/.759 but coming in well below Kaline in R and RBI. Clemente did field amazingly, and Kaline was merely great – and yes I saw every WS game played from ‘66 thru ‘81.
If you use replacement value for comparison as I do, Kaline’s 477 games in CF – almost 3 seasons gives him another bump up over Roberto who only played a below average .3 seasons as a CF. I must rate them even in fielding because Kaline was great at the more important position of CF. In RF I estimate RC saved about 1.25 more runs a year then Kaline. Also Kaline was significantly better at fielding percentage .987 to .973. Even or smidge of an edge to Kaline per 162 games.
Base Running:
Kaline was more productive with SB, and had a better SB/CS ratio. Clemente appeared to be running very fast, but had a lot of wasted motion. Kaline appeared to glide more. Even or slight edge Kaline.
Batting:
Kaline had 13 130 OPS+ or better seasons – Clemente 11
Kaline had 7 seaons 104 or more runs created – Clemente 5
Kaline OWP% .688 to .655 for Clemente
Kaline had 1,385 more PA’s which resulted in his better rate stats (OPS+, RC) being excercised more then Clemente giving him better HR, RBI, Runs totals, and of course other career totals such as BattingRuns and BattingWins.
Power/Speed Number: 77th (Clemente is 257th)
Times on Base: 25th (Clemente 71st – even w/ EQ for PA he is well under Kaline)
OPS+ 114th (Clemente 155th)
Total Bases: 23rd (Clemente 42nd)
bases on balls: 39th (Clemente 422nd – never once appearing in the top 10 in a year)
stolen bases: 5 times top 10 – none in top 10 for Clemente (to be fair AL was very slow to go back to SB in those years)
HR’s: 8 times top 10 for Kaline: twice for Clemente
Kaline was a 15 time AS, Clemente – 12, and a very slight MVP Shares lead over Clemente as well.
In their time only Aaron, Mays, Mantle, and FRob were significantly better. Killebrew, Yaz, Morgan was a bit more like it.
In an 18 year span Kaline was one of the top 5-7 players in the AL 13 times. While no match for Mantle (few are) through ‘64, and then behind FRob after ‘66 it is a fairly easy argument to make that he was no less then the 3rd or 4th best player in the AL for an 18 year period. Killebrew makes for an interesting battle for 3rd – and i have no time to pursue that now, Yaz had ‘65, ‘67, ‘68, ‘70 and forget it after that, Kaline walks over him.
Clemente however did not become a good hitter until his 6th year and a great hitter until his 7th year. After that he had 1 good, 3 very good, 8 great seasons. But besides ‘66, ‘67, and ‘69 there is very little argument that he was ever in the top 3 in the NL in any year. If you take his peak period – a much shorter 12 years, the best I can see is 5th or 6th – although the NL was a better league then.
According to Bill Kaline had 443 career win shares (a jamesian invention – that looks at batting, fielding, base running, adjustments to park, etc.) and clemente 377. That means Clemente had 85.1% of the total value in career terms as Kaline.
The value of each in a 162 game season is very close. Clemente is worth .991 of Kaline every 162 games they played. If Clemente did play longer, he would have gotten close to Kalines totals, but his rates would have fallen, as it had his last couple of seasons. Kaline also retired early however, so its probably best not to suppose, and take what we have.
Clementes best season is better then Kalines, but Kalines next two is better then Clementes next two.
So – a guy that is slightly better over a mythical 162 game season year in and year out, and plays enough more games to be worth 14.9% career wise is simply a better player.
The fact that Clementes shorter peak may be somewhat better then any period of 12 years of Kalines in a row cannot offset that he simply has nothing to put up against Kalines 18 year peak – in terms of those other six years.
I’m really aghast that James has Kaline #11 and RC at #8. TO me they are very close and it should be Kaline #8, Clemente #9, and those two dead ball guys out of the way.
The fact that Clemente had an aura (which I enjoyed immensly) doesn’t mean I made a mistake when I named my eldest son for him. However, my wife wouldn’t let me name son #2 Carl… oh well..
You should know that Stephen Widdoes was arrested in either 1980 or 1981 for beating his girlfriend’s cat to death. So that is a little background for you on Mr. Widdoes. Consider the source!
How do I know this? She was a friend of mine at the time and I helped her move out of their townhouse the next night for fear he would beat her up.
I’m from St Louis and have been watching ball since the early 50’s. My job had me travel all over the country and I’ve literally seen hundreds upon hundreds of games.
I have seen both player play live and on thew TV set and I give the edge to Kaline. He made it look so easy in the field and had a lovely swing. If there was a hit needed, he got it and his outfield play was bordering on perfection. Clemente in his own right is a deserving HOFer, yet the mystique about his arm doesn’t seem to be the reality that my own two eyes saw over the years as an educated fan.
I too agree that Kaline was the best post war defensive right fielder, Re arms here is my list of right fielders with the guns
1) Carl Furillo
Roger Maris
2) Al Kaline
3) Jesse Barfield
4) Rocky Colavito* ( just on pure arm strength)
5) Reggie Smith
6) Roberto Clemente
7) Dwight Evans
9) Vlad9mar Guerrero
10)Ellis Valentine
Kaline and Clemente… Cognaq and Champagne.
These two were my favorite players, and I rooted for the Tigers to meet the Pirates in the WS every year from ‘69 to ‘72. Clemente being killed put that dream on the shelf forever.
Kaline I saw dozens of times live… Clemente only on TV. Clemente was the Ghost to us Kaline fans… if Detroit had traded Willie Horton or Mickey Lolich for Roberto in ‘69 only the true fans of 6 would understand… but what an outfield that would have been… Kaline moving back to cf at 34 only for Roberto to have the spot in rf.
Fielding-wise, Kaline had far better numbers, if you go by numbers. Take just the middle 4 years of their careers… ‘63 thru ‘66. Clemente won four GG, but made 43 errors and FA was never even .970. Kaline won four GG in same years but only made 10 errors, never fielding under .985.
As to arms, how really to compare. The baserunners did run on Clemente in the NL, plenty of times, and he gunned them down often enough to thrill. But Kaline? NOBODY ran on him. I mean NOBODY, after ‘58 ran on his arm. In ‘67 when they thought he was getting old and tried again, he gunned down 15. Then they stopped trying again.
In assists per game (just in rf) they are close, .08 Kaline and .11 Clemente. In RF (range factor) in rf, Clemente tiny edge of 2.17 to 2.15. But Kaline was only HALF as likely to commit an error on any chance, .986 to .971.
Ever see the film clip of Kaline nailing Freehan at chest height from the run holding Lou Brock on third in the ‘68 WS? ANYBODY else in rf and Brock was running. With Kaline there, the third base coach has Lou by the pocket.
Used to watch Kaline and Mickey Stanley in pregame throwing thru the cutoff man to the plate… Ike Brown straddled his legs, and Kaline lasered the ball through the triangular target… never missed. Brown hiked an occasional left leg to let a Stanley peg get by though…
DJ, that was a very well written piece
I’m from Chicago, started watching baseball way back in 1951. I saw them both play and after careful thought, I give the nod to Kaline. His arm was stronger than Clementes and more accurate. Nobody ran on his arm. He had a rocket of an arm and perfect throwing mechanics.I actually put him number 1 in throwing as a rightfielder. As a hitter they were equal. Defensively Al had him hands over fist. Best arms of right fielders that I’ve seen
1) Kaline
Colavito
2) Barfield
3) Furillo
4) Reggie Smith
5) Vlad
6) Clemente
7) Valentine
9) Evans
10)Buhner & Maris ( tie)
I grew up as an avid Al Kaline fan. He certainly is in the top 100 players who ever played as Clemente is, too. A special book written about 1986 entitled Players Choice did a survey of former major league players to see who they thought were the bests players at their positions. Clemente was voted the # 1 defensive right fielder of all time and Kaline was voted # 2. Also, it was interesting that the survey revealed that major league ball players tended to view a player’s play in the field as a major component of his greatness, and not just his hitting. So it was interesting that Al Kaline was judged to be the better ball player than Frank Robinson who was a better power hitter, but not as good a fielder. Clemente was viewed as better as well. I thought this might be an interesting point to consider. Thanks for the blog. It was terrific and fair and balanced.
I remember when Al Kaline won the first Roberto Clemente Award, and thought that Roberto would be very happy about that.
As for comparisons made in the comments, I still see too many of the old falsehoods about Clemente. He was not a hypochondriac, he had back problems all his adult life as a result of a car accident on his way to his older brother’s death bed.
There was not a better defensive rightfielder – maybe some as good, and stats like errors were “awarded” by writers who openly despised the guy. David Maraniss’ bio of RC of a few years back details how writers actually conspired to screw him out of the 1960 MVP. He finished SIXTH behind even Don Houk when he was clearly the best Pirate that year and played that way down the pennant stretch when the winner, Dick Groat was out with a broken wrist.
How does anyone know who had the more accurate arm? People may have run on him more because he played in a superior league (because of the AL’s lack of black players) with superior speed. This is also an issue with when comparing the pitching of the time. There was a much higher level in the NL (Spahn, Koufax, Gibson, Marichal, Seaver, Bunning, Jenkins, Perry, Niekro, Drysdale, all Hall of Famers. A collection the AL could not match at the time.
His running speed was not wasted motion, he could fly. No player in the modern era, except Stan Musial had more triples.
He was a sight to watch play, but his style gave his substance a charisma without hurting it a bit – just like Willie Mays. He was no show off.
As you may have guessed, I grew up in Pittsburgh. And well before even most of the adults in the city “got” Roberto Clemente, Bob Prince and the kids did. Little Leagues coaches had to spend hours pleading with kids not to stick their butts out and their left legs “in the bucket” ala The Great One. The basket catch caused the same amount of frustration for those poor guys.
As for hagiography, few remember that he was consistently underrated until the ‘71 Series – playing in a small market, no cable clips every night of his play, and bigoted sportswriters who made no attempt to get past the language barrier and/or preconceived notions (again, check out the Maraniss biography).
Al Kaline? Great player. Great guy. No knocks.
I am not going to say anything bad about Mr. Kaline. No siree Bob. Just want to clear up the myths about Roberto.
More on Kaline…
If you know Tiger Stadium, you remember that the sun in afternoon ballgames shined right over the thirdbase side stands onto the field, directly into right and centerfielder viewing angles. The 50’s and 60’s (when Kaline roamed right and center) were full of day games. Kaline fielded .986 out there (including road stats) while looking into the afternoon sun at least 4 innings of most home games.
When Kaline batted (mostly third in the lineup) for D when runners were aboard, he hit the ball to rightfield so often it seemed that it was the only thing to do. As a kid ballplayer, nobody ever told me to try to do this, yet it was ingrained from Kaline’s seeming habit that I tried to hit a line drive over the right side infielders each time up with runners on. This also probably explains Kaline’s ‘lack’ of Grand Slams… only 2 in 399 hr’s… as his 399 hr’s were 75% to lf, hitting to the opposite field with runners aboard would drop the expected GS total by a corresponding amount.
Finally, regarding his arm again… Kaline was charged an error on one of the greatest throws I ever saw. In the ‘72 ALCS against Oakland, Game 1. After hitting a hr to put the Tigers up in the 11th in his previous ab, Kaline threw a bullet to Aurelio Rodriguez at third to get the A’s runner advancing from first on a single… but the ball hit the runner (Gene Tenace) in the back just as he started his slide… it got away, the runner advanced and scored and the A’s went up 1-0. Watching that play on TV, I almost cried… until the scorer put an ‘E9′ up. Then my 13 year old vocabulary expanded by about a dozen four letter words I had heard but hadn’t yet tried out.
More on Clemente…
We all knew… God allowed Roberto time for 3000.
I remember getting on the schoolbus right after New Year and my buddy telling me Clemente was dead. I had such a sinking feeling inside… and immediately thought that God must have allowed Roberto just enough time to get that 3000th hit. Kaline’s chase of 3000 began for us on that day.
As Al approached 3000, with every hit we thought of the Ghost of Clemente. Getting tickets for a late September Tiger game, hoping to see one last Kaline line drive to right (no longer a rightfielder, but a dh)… the thought of never again seeing such a player made baseball seem smaller. No Clemente was bad enough, now no Kaline anymore either.
Clemente sparkled so much on TV, even in black & white, that the game seemed like a colorful holiday. Watching him on a color tv was like being there.
In the All Star game in Tiger Stadium in ‘71, when Roberto homered to right off Mickey Lolich, Kaline was in rf. Though I was an AL and Tiger partisan, and Lolich was my favorite pitcher, I spilled my popcorn when the ball shot off the bat… I cheered Clemente even in that situation. If Freehan had been left in behind the plate it would have perfected the tableau. This was the only AL win in an ASG for many years…
The hated Orioles stood in the way of a Tigers-Pirates WS that fall. Clemente bested Kaline’s ‘68 performance of 11 for 29 and 2 homers by going 12 for 29 and 2 homers.
When ‘72 came, it looked so much like a Tigers-Pirates series finally… but that blasted Oakland took game 5 and so did the Reds… talk about a double heartbreak. The Reds scored two in the bottom of ninth on Wednesday, then the Tigers lost the 2-1 heartbreaker on Thursday afternoon.
A few months later, Roberto was gone…
Finally, one last Kaline thought…
Kaline was compared to Cobb early in his career. In many ways, he was denigrated that he didn’t live up to the expectations vis-a-vis Cobb.
Here’s one where he does…
When Cobb was old, dying of cancer and other diseases, a reporter asked him how he would hit against ‘modern’ (1960) pitchers. “About .300″ was Cobb’s answer. When the reporter asked why so low, Cobb’s classic answer… “You’ve got to remember I’m 73 years old”
The Line is 74 years old now. He still looks good enough physically to field .986 and hit .287. Especially with expansion, the lowered mound and smaller strike zone. How many ex-ballplayers 20 years younger than him look not good enough to catch a bus, much less a sinking liner.
Bob Costas even did a comparison of these 2. The fact is Kaline is and was the better player but Clemente had more flash. In today’s world he would be adored because flash sells. Kaline threw out runners at first from the outfield on 3 occasions. He was significantly more accurate then Clemente. Finally for all the talk and nonsense about Clemente’s speed guess who had significantly more stolen bases???? Kaline. Clemente is more legend and Kaline is reality so deal with it.
I’m 81 years old, of sound mind and a huge ball fan. I’d love to share my thoughts on RC vs AK.
Andre Dawson- 9.9 arms strength, about an 8.8 in accuracy
Hitting: both were no Mantle or a Mays. Kaline had a lovely swing and was a clutch and dangerous hitter. Clemente was a tremendous bad ball hitter and also delivered timely hits. Kaline had more power, Clemente hit for a higher average. Both did not have upper deck, tape measure power, but once every 3 or 4 years could launch one 440 feet plus. When you take productivity, batting average and clutchness into account, both were very dangerous hitters ( DRAW).
Baserunning: Both had above average wheels, Clemente’s helmet would fly off his head, Kaline was a very smart baserunner. Two different styles, same result. Both good on the basepaths(Draw)
Arm: I’m going to rank the post war throwing arms and I’m pretty set on my below picks
1) Kaline – a cannon with pinpoint accuracy. 10 on arms strength, 10 on accuracy
2) Carl Furillo – 10 arm strength, 10 accuracy ,a smidgeon below AK
3) Jesse Barfield – 10 arms strength. 9.5
accuracy
4) Rocky Colavito- 10 arms strength, 9.0 accuracy
5) Roberto Clemente – arm strength 9.8, accuracy about a 9.5
6) Johnny Callsion -9.9 arm strenth, about a 9.0 in accuracy
7) Dewey Evans- 9.8 arms strenth, about a 9.0 accuracy
9) Roger Maris – 9.5 arm strength, 9.2 accuracy
10) Vlad – 9.5 arm strength, 8.7 accuracy
honorable mention: Jay Buhner, Hank Aaron, Dave Winfield, Ellis Valentine. Bobby Higginson, Dave Parker, Tony Conigliaro
Advantage: Kaline
Fielding: No contest
Advantage: Kaline
All in all, I gibve the edge to Al Kaline
81 years young ,a ball fan for 71 years and a NEW YORKER.
I want to talk about the great arms only. Here is my ranking in order.
Kaline
Callison
Furillo
Barfield
Ott
Colavito
Dawson
Clemente
Conigliaro
Suzuki
Evans
Maris
Buhner
Guerrero
Valentine
Aaron
Walker
Winfield
Higginson
Irish Meusel
What an interesting question ‘Clemente or Kaline’.
I’m old enough to have seen them both play, and I’m not fron PA or MI, so this is a completely non hometown biased opinion.
Hitting: weigh the stats and it’s a toss up. In pressure situations both were very dangerous and excellent in the clutch- DRAW
Baserunning: both were quite fast, Clemente stayed quicker longer, Kaline was a very smart baserunner and a great slider DRAW
Throwing Arm: Stengel, Crosetti, Berra, Brock, Horton, Minosa were all quoted as saying he had the best outfielder arm in the history of the game. Clemente had a gun and was remembered for a famous throw to 3rd base in a world series game. Clemente sure could throw, but he is not a top 5 in outfielders arms ( that goes to Kaline, Barfield, Furillo, Callison and Evans) -Slight ADV Kaline
Glove Work: Kaline is the standard defensively as a right fielder. Clemente was not the same glove man Al kaline was. Substantial ADV Al Kaline
It’s not easy to compare the two, they had different styles. Nobody ran on him from 1955 to 1966. Then in 1967 they tried again because he was getting older, and with all the injuries etc, the base runners thought….well nows the time, and he gunned them down like he was shooting fish in a barrell. Clemente hit for a better average, Kaline was more productive. I have to give a slight edge to Kaline