Tuesday, April 1st, 2008...7:14 am
WB: Clemente vs. Kaline
First impressions
I feel confident that most people would say Clemente was better than Kaline. “Not to take anything away from Kaline,” says a friend of mine, “but Roberto Clemente was the best player I ever saw.” I’m guessing entirely, but I would say 94% of the people polled outside of Detroit would say Clemente was the better player.
What the statistics say (Well, now it gets interesting).
Roberto Clemente was a rightt-handed hitter with moderate power who had exactly 3,000 hits. He died ate age 38 in a plane crash. He was on his way to bringing food and supplies to Nicaragua, which had just been hit with a savage earthquake.
Al Kaline was a right-handed hitter with a little bit better than moderate power who had 3007 hits. He retired at 39 after a year as a designated hitter.
Clemente hit .317 for his career. He won four batting titles.
Kaline hit .297 for his career. He won one batting title. That was when he was 20.
Huge advantage Clemente.
BUT …
Kaline had a .376 on-base percentage. Clemente’s OBP was .359.
Kaline had a .480 slugging percentage. Clemente’s was .475.
Kaline walked more than twice as often and struck out less than Clemente.
Kaline’s career OPS+ was 134. Clemente’s was 130.
Huge, huge advantage Kaline.
BUT …
Clemente had perhaps the greatest outfield arm in baseball history. He won 12 Gold Gloves, many of those on the strength of his arm, and he had 260 assists in right field.
Then again, Kaline was a brilliant outfielder himself, a 10-time Gold Glove winner, one of those specifically in center. He did not have Clemente’s arm — who does? — but he had a terrific arm himself, and once threw out two runners at home in the same inning.
Moderate advantage Clemente.
BUT …
Kaline had more home run juice. He played in about about 400 more games than Clemente, and he played home games in a better home run park. Still, he hit 399 home runs to Clemente’s 240. Clemente hit 20+ homers only three times in his career. Kaline hit 20+ homers nine times.
Advantage Kaline.
BUT …
Clemente was a more spectacular player. He had 166 triples in his career for instance, more than twice as many as Kaline. He had the special arm. He played with a certain style; people idolized him. Teammates idolized him. He led the Pirates to two World Series championships.
Kaline was consistent. A rock. He was an All-Star virtually every year but he never won an MVP award (Clemente won in ‘66). He reached double digits in homers for 20 straight seasons, but he never hit 30. After his 21st year, he drove in 100 runs once, but he drove in 80 or more six times. He scored 100 or more runs once, but he scored 80 or more seven times. This was, to be fair, during some very down offensive seasons, and Kaline put up some terrific OPS+ numbers. But the feeling about him was not awe but respect. He did play on one World Series winner, in 1968, but was a part-time player … he had 327 at-bats.
Apparent advantage: Clemente.
What a great person says:
“I saw Kaline most of his career. Saw Clemente only in All-Star game or World Series. Kaline had high degree of consistent play. A fine human being. But I think Clemente goes beyond that because of his humanity which led to his death.”
– Ernie Harwell
An Essay
I’m infatuated with Roberto Clemente. And I know very little about Al Kaline. I doubt this makes me very different from most baseball fans. I’ve mentioned this here before — I believe it was while reading an essay by Nick Hornby that I heard about a prose poet whose poems would be everything they could think of (off the top of the head) about some person or some city or whatever. So …
Roberto Clemente
Born Puerto Rico
Had a fabulous arm.
Was signed by the Brooklyn Dodgers.
Branch Rickey drafted him for the Pirates.
Was called “Bob” on his early baseball cards.
Moody and proud.
Considered hypochondriac in early years.
Ferocious bad ball hitter. Pitchers couldn’t figure him out.
Wasn’t especially fast, but ran bases with abandon.
Doubles became triples.
Hit with heavy bat.
Hit .300 every year of the 1960s. Except crazy ‘68.
Often had nightmares. Couldn’t sleep at all.
Stood up for Latin players. Was as proud and fierce as Jackie.
Could not say no to people in need.
Wore No. 21. Some want that retired for every club.
There’s a lot more, but you get the idea. Now …
Al Kaline
Didn’t play in minor leagues.
Consistent. Mr. Tiger.
Hit 399 home runs in career.
From Baltimore? Is that right? Or Washington?
Something about his batting stance. Relaxed, maybe?
Wore No. 6. Good consistent number.
Made lots of All-Star teams.
Winner (I think) of first Roberto Clemente Award.
And that’s really about it. I suppose if I thought longer and harder, I might remember more about Kaline, but it’s more likely that I’ll remember some other details about Clemente. The thing is, I never saw either of them play. It’s possible I saw Kaline in his final year or two, but if I did it left no mark on my memory. I do vaguely remember the day Roberto Clemente died, but it could be one of those imagined memories that you have because you think you SHOULD remember. I was 5 years old.
In any case, because I have no actual memories of either man as players, all my knowledge has come from reading, from watching old highlights, from talking with players and fans from that time. And, as such, Clemente has been an overpowering presence. Maybe it’s because he died young, and he died heroically. I read David Maraniss’ excellent book about him on the day it came out. I’ve met with his wife and family in Puerto Rico. I’ve been to the Roberto Clemente museum. In my younger days, when I collected baseball cards, I spent too much money for a 1961 Clemente card — that was more or less my highest honor for players I never saw. Over time, I bought a Sandy Koufax card, a Bob Feller card, a Herb Score card, a Stan Musial card, a Roberto Clemente, a Willie Mays, a Frank Howard — these were my father’s heroes.
And Kaline? I just don’t recall having any feelings at all about him. That will sound more negative than I mean it; I feel certain that I have long been aware of Kaline as a great player. I just never felt any curiosity about him.
I think this is probably not uncommon … it seems like Clemente was a player who demanded reverence. That arm was not human. He seemed to play the game on the edge. He carried himself with this regal pride. He was not just one of the great players of his generation, he was one of those rare players who WAS his generation, it is impossible, I imagine, to think of 1960s baseball without seeing Clemente swinging at a pitch at his head and cracking it the other way, into the gap, then running the bases, a blur of black and gold. It’s impossible to think of 1960s baseball without seeing him throwing out a runner with a perfect one-bounce throw throw to third, the baseball hitting the dirt, digging in, spinning forward, leaping into the third baseman’s glove at precisely the right second.
And Kaline was just … well, he was just there every day. It’s a different thing.
The strange part is that that the older I get, the more I admire the Al Kalines of the world. Because, I suppose, that’s how I see my father. He could not be Roberto Clemente. No, he had to go to the factory every morning, up at 5:30 a.m., dress in the dark, get in the rusted out Chevy Nova, drive over those Cleveland potholes (some large enough to be great lakes) to get to Solon and a long day’s work. Sons idolize their fathers, of course. And the older I get, the more I do, the more I find myself drawn not to the spectacular, but to the person who delivers every day, who makes all the plays in the outfield without great acclaim, who fights through injuries and continues to perform with consistency — someone you can count on every single day.
Batting average is not a fulfilling statistic but, here is might say something …
Al Kaline vs. lefties: .305 average.
Al Kaline vs. rightes: .290 average.
Al Kaline at home: .301 average.
Al Kaline on the road: .288 average.
Al Kaline by month: .291 in April, .290 in May, .296 in June, .297 in July, .284 in August and .311 in September.
I love that he he hit 29 homers twice, but never hit 30. I love that he finished second in the MVP twice (and third once) but never won it. I love that he finished second in three batting races and third twice more — this seems to say something about his character. He finished second in RBIs twice, but never first. He finished in the Top 5 in runs four times, but never led the league.
Kaline finished with 399 home runs and did not swing for the fences — or return — to hit 400.
He refused a $100,000 salary in 1971 because he did not feel like he had a good enough year in 1970.
He also took some abuse in Detroit for not “bringing Detroit a title” in the early part of the 1960s. He did not like it. He even talked about being traded. But Kaline stayed, and of course he was brilliant in his one World Series, hitting .379 with two homers and eight RBIs in the seven game victory.
Clemente represented dreams. Kaline represented the realities of things — he hurt, he struggled, he did not get much acclaim, he was blamed for things beyond his control, and yet he delivered year after year after year.
* * *
I am super-duper excited — as I always get whenever I figure something out on this crazy Internet. As you might see up top, right hand corner, I just figured out how to put the polls on this site. So now, to vote for Kaline or Clemente (or any of the future polls) you can stay right here and not have to go to some other site. I’m thrilled.
And, of course, at some point it will all fall under the Pozcars umbrella. As will all of society!
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42 Comments
April 2nd, 2008 at 3:12 pm
If this wasn’t written so well, I’d question why a blog post comparing two ballplayers from the 60s has any revelance at all.
But it’s your blog.
How about Danny Manning and why he wasn’t named one of the top 25 on ESPN? Or any kind of a Kansas post? There’s some big event going on this weekend. Maybe you’ve noticed.
April 2nd, 2008 at 3:20 pm
Clemente’s SLG was .475*.
April 2nd, 2008 at 3:33 pm
Beautiful post. Got me thinking about who I would compare them to who is playing today. I would say Clemente is like Vlad Guerrero. You want to see the ball hit to him with that rookie speedster tagging up on third. You want to see him hit. You really wish he could stay healthy so that he could play every game. Vlad, I think, is like Clemente in that he is worth the price of admission by himself.
I had trouble coming up with someone like Kaline, the closest is Jim Edmonds or Moises Alou. Alou is the better fit, but Edmonds comes up closer with offensive statistics. Moises was never the defensive player that Kaline, Clemente or Vlad was, but he was consistent, he was going to go out and get hits, usually one, maybe two everyday. And you always know that your team is a better team with Alou on it.
Btw, Vlad is only 32. Man, I hope he can play another 6 years like Clemente.
April 2nd, 2008 at 3:36 pm
I voted for Kaline, purely on some kind of contrarian instinct. The numbers, to me, were that indistinguishable. But upon reflection, it seems to me that a case could be made like this: Kaline was very good at nearly all areas necessary to be a successful major league outfielder, as was Clemente. Kaline was better in some areas, Clemente others. However, I’ve never heard (nor do the numbers bear out) that Kaline was the best, ever, at anything. I have heard that Clemente had the best outfield arm, ever. Although defensive numbers, particularly those compiled some time ago, are notoriously slippery, and although assists alone don’t necessarily do justice to arm strength, 27 outfield assists in 1969 — his fifteenth season, when presumably at least two or three people were aware that he could throw a little — suggests to me that he very well might have had the best outfield arm, ever. To me, that gives Clemente an edge. So I want my vote back.
April 2nd, 2008 at 3:37 pm
I wish they would put out a DVD of Clemente’s best throws.
Also, OPS+ may not be fair because the NL was better than the AL for much of their careers.
P.S. I’m all for them retiring the number 21 on Clemente’s 75th birthday, for one thing the number is high enough not to be a problem. I would never be for retiring a single digit number, too many greats shared those numbers.
April 2nd, 2008 at 3:41 pm
Why do people keep asking me to choose between realism and idealism? Whether in baseball or politics, isn’t it crucial to have both? Baseball at its best is represented by these two men, together, not one instead of the other.
April 2nd, 2008 at 4:09 pm
I followed their two growing up, and my memory is that while they were playing, they were probably considered about equal. Both were overshadowed by more prominent superstars in their leagues, both were considered great players who were closely identified with their teams. It was only after Clemente’s spectacular World Series followed by his martyr-like death that he moved into the same realm as Mays, Aaron and Mantle.
April 2nd, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Are we trying to decide who is the better person or the better ballplayer? As much as I hate to disagree with Ernie Harwell, getting killed in a plane crash delivering humantarian aid doesn’t make you a better ballplayer. A better person? Sure…
April 2nd, 2008 at 4:56 pm
In the ’60’s I lived in West Philadelphia and used to take the bus to New York for weekend series between the Yanks and Tigers. I was at Yankee Stadium in 1962 the day Kaline broke his collarbone on a diving catch in the OF. He only played 100 games in 1962 and had only 398 AB, but it was one of the seasons he hit 29 HR and he had 94 RBI that season. Most of his improved power that season was apparently caused by pulling the ball more when he came back after the injury. The following season he went right back to his regular swing. I watched Kaline every chance I could, though I was living in a NL city from 1960-69 and I don’t remember ever seeing the Pirates. I’ve always been a Tiger fan and had more interest in AL games. I went to Connie Mack Stadium occasionally, but the only visiting team I remember seeing was the Cubs. Since I don’t remember ever seeing Clemente, I won’t vote. In the New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract, James rates Clemente 8th and Kaline 11th among all-time right fielders.
April 2nd, 2008 at 5:01 pm
I share Joe’s passion for Clemente, even down to spending too much for one of his baseball cards. In my case, it was $75 for the 1960 Topps “Bob” Clemente. Most money I’ve ever dropped on a single card; probably the most I ever will. And I don’t regret it one bit.
April 2nd, 2008 at 5:02 pm
I went to a Sonics game once where Kaline was in attendance and was introduced to the crowd as an all-time baseball great. My girlfriend had never heard of him, and when she saw his name on the scoreboard, she said, “Is that a joke?”
I’d never noticed before that day that ALKALINE is a pretty funny name.
April 2nd, 2008 at 5:14 pm
In 1968 I was at a game at Tiger Stadiumwhich is best remembered for a fight between Dick McAlliffe and Tommy John. At one point my father called for Kaline to hit a home run. With my 15yr old logic I replied Al was washed up. After the 450′ homer past the flagpole in center, I changed my mind I won’t repeat my dad’s comment.
April 2nd, 2008 at 5:16 pm
What can I say - although I’m not from Detroit, I’m from across the river. Growing up watching the Tigers, Al was the colour man for their tv broadcasts, and he was the single straightest straight man ever. George Kell did the play-by-play, who was also pretty straight, but at least had the drawl to add a little flavour to the broadcast.
One of my favourite moments was a game where a fan ran onto the field and up to Kirk Gibon in right field, and this was the bluest George ever got, as he yelled out in surprise: “Fer chrissakes, somebody help Gibby!!” (as if Gibson would need help from anyone taking care of himself). I think Al Kaline was speechless for about 10 minutes after that. I also think George Kell apologizes daily for that outburst…
April 2nd, 2008 at 6:02 pm
On Baseball Prospectus’ DT cards, they have Clemente down for 133.5 WARP1, 127.6 WARP2, and 128.8 WARP3 for his career.
Kaline: 128.5, 110.8, 112.3 respectively.
Bill James’ Win Shares
Clemente: 377 Career, 25.10 per 162 games
Kaline: 443 Career, 25.32
I should not James ranks Clemente ahead of Kaline.
April 2nd, 2008 at 6:03 pm
note*
April 2nd, 2008 at 6:14 pm
I was surprised to see the numbers side-by-side. I follow baseball very closely, and as I look back at a comparison like this, I wonder if there is a larger “blindspot” for people my age (several months ahead of you, Joe) regarding 60’s hitters. The serious deadening of offensive numbers through the majority of the 60’s seems to have also deadened their “fame” among us who were too young to really remember them, but were regaled with stories of the “really great” ones our parents and grandparents enjoyed. I knew Willie was an all-time great, and Mickey was one-of-a-kind, but I had no idea Kaline had those numbers, and wasn’t really aware that Frank Robinson was the #4 HR hitter of all time (for a long time), until a friend “won” a free promotional signed ball in the late 90’s. Seriously. If you’d put me on the spot, I might have guessed Frank…but I would not have been certain of it before he won the signed ball.
Who were the “great” 60’s players I knew from my early youth? Brooks Robinson, Bob Gibson, Roger Maris (and Mickey as well, as the subplot), Denny McClain, and Roberto Clemente. Guys whose fame outgrew their actual performances…
I’m not sure if this is a general truth for all, or something tied to our particular generation? No idea, really…
Joe
April 2nd, 2008 at 6:43 pm
Clemente’s slugging average was .475. I don’t think Kaline had a huge advantage in the OBP/SLG/OPS dept.
Regardless - beautiful article, thank you. I really enjoyed it.
April 2nd, 2008 at 7:01 pm
Unlike many weighing in on this subject I did watch Roberto play. In fact, as a then seven year old growing up in the ‘Burg I followed his every move. Even today his B&W 8×10 framed glossy hangs proudly in my office. Why? Because he was an inspiration as a ball player and more importantly as a man. Sure he could get cranky at times…just like you and me. Oh, but to see a perfect strike nail a baserunner from 300 feet. Now we’re talking. OBP, SLG, OPS — these modern and valid statistical measurements weren’t a part of the game. What mattered was production and Clemente was clutch. ‘Nuff said. Ariba lives.
April 2nd, 2008 at 9:45 pm
Their lines neutralized to an average park in a 162 game, 750 run environment:
Kaline: .310/.390/.500, 2061 RC
Clemente: .327/.369/.489, 1789 RCs
April 2nd, 2008 at 9:56 pm
I had the pleasure to see Clemente play several times in person, and Kaline once (although actually twice because it was a doubleheader)
My take on the two is that Clemente played with more drama, and did have a certain aura about him. However, I think his legendary status grew due to the circumstances of his death.
Kaline hit one of the hardest line drives I ever witnessed, at the old Comiskey Park, and I saw Clemente make the best throw from right field (old Busch Stadium) to nail a runner at third that I have ever seen in 40-plus years of following baseball.
Bottom line, I respect both, but give me vote to Roberto.
April 2nd, 2008 at 10:12 pm
Between Kaline being the second-best baseball player from Baltimore, and memories of what Clemente did to the Orioles in 1971 (genetic; I wasn’t born until 1983…), I know who I’m voting for!
April 2nd, 2008 at 10:19 pm
I’m too young to have seen either of them play (both were already in the Hall when I was born), so I went with the numbers and your article. Their offensive stats are fairly similar, but Kaline struck out 210 times less and hit in a couple fewer double plays despite playing in 400 more games. And Clemente was an everyday player his entire career, which lasted from his age 20 season until his age 37 season. If you look at the same range of seasons for Kaline, his offensive numbers are that much better in comparison.
April 2nd, 2008 at 10:45 pm
I think one thing that works against Kaline is that he was so good, so young and when he didn’t put up the same kind of numbers every year afterward, it made us think that he wasn’t as great as our expectations were of him.
The guy was a hell of a ball player and could do everything well on the field. You couldn’t get a thing by him in RF and to tell the truth, he had great range and a great arm but he didn’t show it off like a lot of guys do. You just knew you weren’t going to run on him.
As a hitter, you never wanted to see him up with a chance to beat your team. His judgement running the bases was excellent and you never saw him get thrown out. His all around baseball skills and instincts were better than all but the very best in the game and for a long time.
The injuries took their toll as well. He always went all out and wasn’t afraid of running into a wall or to make the diving catch.
On the other hand, Clemente didn’t do much his first few years except for 56. His lack of English skills made it hard to interview him and he always seemed to have some minor ailment or another that kept him off the field. He came across as sullen and uncommunitive in those early years, only later hitting his stride as he began to develop into the skills he had.
While Kaline was special, he wasn’t showy. Clemente was special and showy. Always showing off his arm, even when he didn’t have to and adopting the basket catch that also became one of his trademarks.
It didn’t help much either that during much of the same time they were in their prime that a guy named Aaron was playing the same position. By comparison, neither could withstand the scrutiny.
When you boil it down, you wouldn’t hurt yourself having either guy on your team. When they were on the field, both were competitors who gave everything they had and both wound up in Cooperstown where they deserve to be.
Having seen both play, I’d say flip a coin and know which ever way it came up, you’d win.
April 2nd, 2008 at 11:03 pm
There was no shame for Al Kaline being the second best player in the American League behind Mickey Mantle during his great career. The reason Kaline never hit 30 homeruns in a season or had more 100 runs and 100 rbi seasons is because he was always getting injured playing his all out style. Kaline played over 150 games once after 1956. Fractured cheekbone in ‘59, broken collarbone in ‘62, leg and knee problems in ‘63, more of same health problems until off season surgery after ‘65 season, broken hand in ‘67, broken arm in ‘68, and nagging injuries his last few years playing. Kaline missed about 400 game in those years from ‘54 to ‘74. If Clemente was a 10 on arm strength, Kaline was a 9.9 and if Kaline was a 10 on accuracy, clemente was a 9.9. Their fielding and throwing is really equal imo. Am I partial to Kaline?, Yes, I saw him every year from ‘54 as a 7 year old to his last year. Kaline was as smooth as Joe DiMaggio, making even a difficult play look easy. He was spectacular in a dignified way. Smooth as silk and an ultimate team player. Kaline did what was right for the game situation, not swinging for a homerun every at bat, a professional hitter. Both great players no question, but for me Kaline was better in a close vote.
April 3rd, 2008 at 5:56 am
Clemete=Vlad wiout the HR power
Kaline=Chipper jones wi out the power
this is an offensive comparison for the youngsters who dont know Kaline and Clemente-
Another way would be to say they are like twins who become different in subtle ways yet are still the same. Both Quality HOF players who played wi passion, dignity and class. Nice article
April 3rd, 2008 at 8:01 am
I think of Vlad as the modern Clemente too, although I’m too young to have seen Clemente play.
I’ve been lucky to attend the last couple All-Star Games. One of the highlights each year, without a doubt, is just standing at the cage and watching Vlad take BP up close.
If I could see any player in the league play in person every day, Vlad would be my guy.
April 3rd, 2008 at 8:06 am
This is a great essay and I have a new appreciation for Kaline.
I’m sure some posters here discount the value of style, charisma, drama, etc. But as a fan of the game I think they count for something.
If you could somehow bring back either Clemente or Kaline in their prime to play one full season for your favorite team, who would you pick? Who would bring you more joy as a baseball fan? Who would give you more anticipation coming to the ballpark? For me it’s Clemente, hands-down.
April 3rd, 2008 at 9:17 am
Look, Clemente was a great player, but there seems to be a little too much hagiography around him, what with the early, humanitarian-type death and the fantastic arm.
Yes, I am biased, since Al Kaline was my Dad’s favorite player as he grew up in Michigan (and I sponsored Kaline one year on BB-Ref as a B-day present for my Dad). I’ll take Kaline on my team any day. Despite the arm, I think Kaline was a better defensive player than Clemente.
April 3rd, 2008 at 9:24 am
I love the Pozcars, and the intent of expanding them unto all realms of the universe. But I can’t vote on this one. They were both great players.
April 3rd, 2008 at 9:49 am
Hmmm…huge halo effect for Clemente, because of both the arm and the tragic death. I wonder whether the difference in their OF styles–steady vs. spectacular–might say something about Kaline being, maybe, better fundamentally - kind of in the way Andruw Jones is better than Jim Edmonds, but has spent less time on the highlight reels?
April 3rd, 2008 at 11:20 am
I’d be curious to see how the results of a poll before reading the article versus one after reading the article would have turned out. I’m guessing that the percentage for Kaline would go up 10-20%. More and more I’m learning the increased respect you have for your father as you get older. Particularly once you have your own kids and go through the same things he did.
April 3rd, 2008 at 11:35 am
The more I read this great post, the less I wanted to choose. By the end, it seemed silly to pick one as better. I can’t deny Clemente, and if we’re picking, he’s my pick. But the world could use a few more Al Kalines. My problem with picking a better, is it’s near impossible to see the one you don’t pick as lacking. Of course they were both lacking- so was Mother Theresa, but they were both great. I prefer to just focus on the great.
April 3rd, 2008 at 1:49 pm
Clemente is one of the most overrated players in MLB history. He was a very good player and a HOFer. But, he’s still quite overrated. I can’t count how many people I’ve heard say things like “He’s one of the greatest all around players of all time.” It’s just not true.
April 3rd, 2008 at 7:46 pm
Kaline can’t be rated higher than Clemente because it would be considered anti-Latino. Remember the righteous indignation when Clem was not named to the all-time MLB team?
April 3rd, 2008 at 10:17 pm
Best thing I’ve read today.
April 3rd, 2008 at 11:09 pm
Thanks for the great article. As a kid growing up in Connecticut for some reason I was a Detroit Tigers fan. In those days there were not many opportunities to see players like Kaline or Clemente play except in the post season or the occasional Game of the Week. As a kid I chose Kaline to be my favorite player but to this day I have been struggling to figure out how good a player he really was. I was 8 years old in 1968 but I remember that World Series very clearly but that also was near the end of Kaline’s career. For a player that good whose career wasn’t that long ago it is odd that most fans know so little about him. There is a book written about the last season of Tiger Stadium by Tom Stanton called the “Final Season” and it talks about how revered Kaline was in Detroit. I think Clemente was in the same boat as Kaline but the ‘71 World Series got him more recognition. Since this writer is based in Kansas City I suspect that fans from throughout the Midwest understand how hard it was for players from their teams to get recognition from that era. The New York media bias and lack of television exposure caused a lot of great players to be underappreciated. Given all that I’m not sure I can choose between the two of them. They both would have been a lot more famous if they had played in either New York or Boston but I maybe not as loved as they were playing in their respective cities.
April 8th, 2008 at 8:01 pm
I was 14 growing up in Pittsburgh in “56″ when Clemente came to town………. for a number of years most of the Pgh. sportswriters were mostly negative and would print his comments using phoenics……… They seemed to resent him as a black ballplayer……… back then their was alot of predigous going around……… it was an all white team except for right field…. Clemente went thru a tough time with the language barrier and when Murtaugh became Mgr. their was alot of friction between the two…… he accused #21 of jaking it…….. funny how Roberto ended up playing more games then any Buc before or since….. Murtaugh didn’t know what he had in Clemente……….. I remember listening on the radio to just about all the games and even seeing a few at Forbes field…… I have never seem a better right fielder…. he would run a ball down and throw to 3rd or home on one bounce or more likely the ball never touched the ground…
never seen a better arm ….. back then the NL had the better players/pitchers……. Forbes field was one of the most spacious fields in the league. the center field wall was so deep that they used to park the batting cage out there and it was in play….. Roberto knew as soon as he first came that the fences were to far………. so he became a line drive hitter and got alot of doubles & triples… What I remember the most and I’m quoting one of the sportwriters who I can’t remember, but can put things into words much better than I…..” YOU COULDN’T TAKE YOUR EYES OFF OF HIM” ……… I would look at Clemente in RF instead of the batter……. I missed many pitches…… like most kids he became my hero because of being such a great BB player ………. after I got somewhat older it changed to: because he was such a great person
April 9th, 2008 at 8:28 pm
Clemente was the best by the mile, Kaline was just a good player.
April 10th, 2008 at 2:27 pm
Well, my computer password is roberto21, so I voted a long time ago. Anyhow, a story:
The Pirates were trying to sign a young pitcher who had been born in Puerto Rico and grew up in New York. The GM, Joe Brown, thought, “What could be better to close the deal than to let the kid talk to Clemente?”
The meeting was arranged and Clemente and the kid started talking in Spanish. Brown thought, “Great. This deal is done.”
What he didn’t know was that Clemente was saying, “How much did they offer you to sign?”; “That’s not enough.”; and “”Say ‘no’. They’ll offer you more next year.”
And that’s just what happened. And the kid was John Candelaria.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:28 pm
As a fresh-faced college grad in the mid 90’s, I worked for the company that owns the Tigers and Red Wings. On some errand at the old Tiger Stadium, I was waiting in the front office lobby on a game day…maybe 5 or 10 other people were there.
The door opens and Kaline walks in, tall, impeccably dressed, perfect posture, a huge mane of white hair. The 60+ year old security guard said: “Hey, King!” Kaline gives him a nod as he walked through the lobby.
This is a terribly over-used cliche, but the man’s presence stopped everyone in the room.
April 29th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
2 of the most underated RF of all time and this will show my bias “the great one” as the “gunner”[Bob Prince the Bucs play by play man] did play in the better league at the time[check the all-star game record]. Yet both played in an era where the pitcher was dominant [gibson,koufax,drysdale,marechal]. Raise the mound,deaden the ball would todays hitters do as well? Growing up I had the pleasure of seeing both of these great players and men play in person Al Kaline in Cleveland,who had a pretty good RF in Rocky Colavito and Roberto at forbes field & three rivers. I submit two votes here,my father’s[who is no longer able to give his own]—-Al Kaline and mine ROBERTO CLEMENTE
May 4th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
Can’t seem to vote any more. No probs.
Clemente gets kudos for his humanitarianism, and was indeed a great player. But did I detect some poster suggesting that Kaline should die in a plane crash in order to be fairly compared as a ballplayer? I hope not.
Anyway, I have ‘the Line’ on my best 5 players of the second half of the 20th century, along with Mays, Aaron, Robinson, and Mantle. Roberto is not in the top 50. So you know where my vote is.
Comparing statistics is useful, but there is a lot more to it. Who meant more to his team beyond his personal stats? You didn’t run on Kaline. Is he the only outfielder to through out two runners at the plate in the same inning? He wins games just by being there and intimidating the other team, even if his stat lines says he was 0 for. And like several posters have pointed out, if he hadn’t been injured, several of those 2nd place seasons would have been 1st place seasons, easily. And Detroit would quite possibly have played in more World Series (though the d*mn Yankees did have some pretty overwhelming teams during Al’s prime).
Clemente was showy and crowd pleasing. That’s important to a team too, but for getting bums on seats, not winning games. But for him to have similar career stats to Kaline while playing mostly uninjured isn’t good enough to rank him in the upper-echelon of top players. I do rank him as an superior defensive player though. You can’t get 12 golden gloves and be a hack. But he didn’t have the accuracy and distance that Kaline had. You might think twice about going home against Clemente, but the thought didn;t even enter your mind against Kaline. And Clemente could go into a sulk and disappear for week. Kaline brought it every day.
For this comparison I have to vote for Al Kaline, as I would for any comparison of him with any outfielder since WWII bar Willie Mays, who is quite possibly the best individual player of all time in my book.
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