I can’t understand Canton
Posted: February 3rd, 2008 | Filed under: Baseball | 25 Comments »
I’m stunned. Utterly stunned. Nothing should stun me about Halls of Fame, not after sitting in that room with Buck O’Neil when word came down that he was not elected into the Baseball Hall of of Fame when SEVENTEEN dead people were elected. That number still grabs me by the throat — they put in SEVENTEEN people. Not Buck.* I should have lost every last one of my stun nerve-ends that day.
*I have no bitterness left about this, by the way. I think I’ve mentioned this before, but it’s worth mentioning again … I’m really proud of the Baseball Hall of Fame for what they did for Buck by creating the Buck O’Neil Lifetime Achievement award. To me, that’s bigger and even more meaningful than Hall of Fame induction for someone like Buck. Nobody but the most intense baseball fans will ever realize that Frank Grant, Ben Taylor and Alex Pompez are in the Hall of Fame. But every couple of years, Buck O’Neil’s name will come up again. Sure, I wish — we all wish — that Buck was alive to enjoy it. But he lived a good life. He knew that people loved him, and he would be remembered.
But Saturday, I got stunned again by the Hall of Fame. Former Kansas CIty Chiefs linebacker Derrick Thomas was up for the Hall of Fame, and I thought he had a good shot getting elected. DT was, in my mind, the most dynamic defensive player of the 1990s. I’m not saying the best — Bruce Smith, Reggie White, there were some great ones. Most dynamic. He had more sacks, forced more fumbles and, I think, changed more games than any defensive player.
Football is not really a game of numbers, certainly not like baseball, but I thought Thomas’ numbers, his infectious personality (he was NFL Man of the Year one year, and one of George H. Bush’s thousand points of light) and his overpowering play, to me, made him a slam dunk Hall of Fame candidate.
That said, I wasn’t exactly certain that he was going to make it. He had not gotten the votes the previous three years. I can only guess why. Derrick Thomas ticked off lots of people in Kansas City because it came out after he died in a car wreck at a young age that he had a wild lifestyle — he fathered numerous children with different women. I’m not certain that football hall of fame voters are supposed to consider a player’s character and integrity like baseball hall voters, but anyway, there was a bit of a cloud surrounding him.
Maybe more to the point, there was always this lingering (and in my opinion somewhat unfair) impression that Derrick was a one-dimensional player who only rushed the passer and did not stop the run. I thought it was unfair because the Chiefs defense was not, for most of Derrick’s career, subpar against the run, and also he was asked to sack the quarteback and change games — that’s just what he did.* I mean, in football, they’re ALL one dimensional, aren’t they?
*Anyway, it would become clear Saturday that the ability to stop the run wasn’t a huge factor in the voting because former defensive end Fred Dean, who for much of his career was a designated pass rusher, was elected into the Hall of Fame. Dean, a truly great pass rusher, played much of his career for San Diego, a team that was routinely below average against the run. In San Francisco he would often only play on passing downs.
So, I would say that after I looked closely at the ballot and considered the voters’ history — there’s a very long blog post to be done on the Pro Football Hall of Fame voters but I don’t want to write that — I thought Derrick had about a 60% chance of getting elected into the Hall of Fame Saturday. And … he did not get elected. Darrell Green did. I knew that was coming. He was a great defensive back, one of the best ever, a deserving first-ballot guy. Offensive lineman Gary Zimmerman got in. I was a little surprised by that — I thought offensive lineman Randall McDaniel with his 12 Pro Bowls and 9 all-pro selections was a better choice — but Zimmerman was great too. Good for him.
Receiver Art Monk got in. Again, a little surprised, but happy for him. He caught a lot of passes.
As mentioned in the footnote, Fred Dean got in. OK, that’s a bit weird. Dean was a defensive end whose job was to rush the passer. Derrick Thomas was an outside linebacker whose job was to rush the passer. Only … Derrick Thomas was BETTER at it. Dean played much of his career before the sack was an official stat, but the best estimates are that he would have had “almost 100 sacks” in his career. Thomas had 126.5. Dean recovered 13 fumbles. Thomas recovered 19. Dean is known for his famous six sack game against New Orleans, which is great except Derrick Thomas had a SEVEN sack game. Dean played in four Pro Bowls. Thomas played in nine. And so on.
Well, OK, well, Dean played in a different era from Thomas and played a slightly different position. So, yeah, that’s weird, but … the shocker was to come.
The fifth player to go in was an outside linebacker, Andre Tippett.
Now, let me get this out right up front. Andre Tippett was a terrific player. I liked watching him play for New England, and I have tremendous respect for him. OK, that’s out of the way.
There’s is absolutely no way on God’s Green Field Turf that Andre Tippett was as good a player as Derrick Thomas.
We can start with statistics if you want:
Andre Tippett: 100 sacks, 1 INT, 14 forced fumbles, 19 fumble rec., 2 touchdowns, 0 safeties, 5 Pro Bowls, 2 1st Team All Pro.
D. Thomas: 126.5 sacks, 1 INT 45 forced fumbles, 19 fumble rec., 4 touchdowns, 3 safeties, 9 Pro Bowls, 3 1st team All Pro.
I know that I just said that football is not really a game about statistics — but how can you look at THAT and determine that Tippett was the better player? They were obviously the same kind of go after the quarterback player — one interception apiece, these guys were not dropping into coverage — and Thomas clearly was just more dominant at that. He forced THIRTY ONE more fumbles. He had TWENTY SIX more sacks. What’s going on here?
So, I’m sure that the argument would then be that Tippett was a better “all-around” player than Thomas because this is sort of the football version of the “you can’t use stats to measure all the good things that Derek Jeter does for a team.” They will tell you he was better against the run. OK, maybe he was, I don’t know. Here is where the Patriots ranked in the NFL against the run during Tippett’s career.
1983: 21st.
1984: 12th
1985: 6th
1986: 24th
1987: 14th
1988: 19th
1989: 17th
1990: 28th
1991: 9th
1992: 22nd
1993: 22nd
Wow. Let me be clear — I am not blaming Andre Tippett for the pretty consistently lousy numbers the Patriots had against the run. I’m saying — HOW GOOD COULD HE HAVE BEEN AGAINST THE RUN? I’m saying that I don’t really see a dominant streak there that would tell you that Andre Tippett was some sort of one-man, run-stuffing demon.
And for leadership — you know how many times the Patriots made the playoffs in his career? Twice. Two times. Of course, they did reach the Super Bowl in 1986, where they got demolished by the ‘85 Bears, but still. Two times. And toward the end of his career, they were abominable, 1-15, 2-14, joke of NFL. Thomas led the Chiefs to the playoffs seven times, and in many ways turned Kansas City into a football town.
It’s getting away from me here. I think Andre Tippett was a great player. I really do. He might even be worthy of the Hall of Fame; I would have to really study that more closely. But I’ll tell you this — picking Andre Tippett over Derrick Thomas is WORSE than picking Jack Morris over Bert Blyleven. And you know where I stand on that one
EDITOR’S UPDATE: I want to give the floor for the moment to my good friend Bernie Mikalsz of the St. Louis Post Dispatch, who is on the Hall of Fame voting committee and is one of the real good guys. You can read his full comment in the comments section — there’s some stuff there on Art Monk too — but here’s what he says about Derrick Thomas, Andre Tippett and Fred Dean:
“Never easy to explain these things but, without trying to sound like Dr. Z, it’s rare (unheard of, nearly) to find a strong-side linebacker who can rush the QB the way Tippett did. He wasn’t flipped to the other side or spotted to expose a weakness in the pass protection. Tippett lined up over that tight end all the time, and often had to take on the TE and an OT just to get close to the QB.
“Among OLBs of the 1980s, Tippett finished second to Lawrence Taylor in sacks, and would have been closer to matching LT had he not missed a season with a shoulder injury. Tippett was unique for the position he played. Really unique.
“The good news is, the vibe in the room on Derrick Thomas was very good, and a lot of people spoke up for him, and no one dissed him, and in my opinion he’ll get in soon. Two pass rushers were voted in today, and that eases the logjam and widens the path for Derrick Thomas.
“Fred Dean – and pardon my cliche, but it’s been a long day and I need a beer – changed the game. He made a mark on history. He was the first real edge rusher, and a lot of teams copied the way the Niners utilized him. For whatever that is worth.”
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PLEASE write that blog about the HOF voters, Joe. I beg you. The world begs you.
BTW, you’re 100% right, of course. What a total crock.
Amen. The Football Hall of Fame selection process is THE most ridiculous thing in all of sports.
I could not possibly agree more, and I’m a Patriots fan who thought Andre Tippett was an exceptionally good football player. On his best day, Tippett was about 75% of Derrick Thomas as a player.
Not only are all of Joe’s numbers correct, but Thomas was by far the more durable player, too. He played 169 games in 11 seasons, missing the grand total of 7 games before his premature death. Tippett was in the league for a dozen years, but missed one entire year (1989) due to injury, and missed another 17 games throught his remaining 11 years.
This one is a serious head scratcher to me.
And on the subject of Art Monk, please explain this one….
Monk: 224 games, 940 catches, 12721 yards, 13.5 Y/C, 68 TDs, 3-time All-Pro
Henry Ellard: 228 games, 814 catches, 13,777 yards, 16.9 Y/C, 65 TDs, 4-time All-Pro
Any massive Henry Ellard for the Hall of Fame bandwagon out there? Anywhere?
Joe, as you may know, I’m on the committee. Never easy to explain these things but, without trying to sound like Dr. Z, it’s rare (unheard of, nearly) to find a strongside linebacker who can rush the QB the way Tippett did. He wasn’t flipped to the other side or spotted to expose a weakness in the pass protection. Tippett lined up over that tight end all the time, and often had to take on the TE and an OT just to get close to the QB. Among OLBs of the 1980s, Tippett finished second to Lawrence Taylor in sacks, and would have been closer to matching LT had he not missed a season with a shoulder injury. Tippett was unique for the position he played. Really unique.
The good news is, the vibe in the room on Derrick Thomas was very good, and a lot of people spoke up for him, and no one dissed him, and in my opinion he’ll get in soon. Two pass rushers were voted in today, and that eases the logjam and widens the path for DThomas.
Fred Dean – and pardon my cliche, but it’s been a long day and I need a beer – changed the game. He made a mark on history. He was the first real edge rusher, and a lot of teams copied the way the Niners utilized him. For whatever that is worth.
As for Monk, well, I’ve been an advocate for a long time. When he retired he had 121 more catches than anyone who had played the game. He was on Super Bowl winners, a team leader. Critics cite his so-so average yards per catch (around 13.5) and his relatively low TD count, but I think I can explain. Monk was excellent at the role that Joe Gibbs gave him in the offense. Monk had the speed to go deep and stretch the defense, but that would have been a waste of his skills as a blocker. Monk was tall and strong and physical and a key component of Washington’s power running game. He could take on LBs and safeties. In his years as a starter, the Redskins rushed for 216 TDs; including the postseason only the Bears had more during that time. The voters can’t have it both ways – complaining about his lack of TD catches, but ignoring his role as a blocker when Riggins, Rogers, Riggs, etc. were crashing into the end zone on runs. Why throw it when you can run it in? Monk could have sulked about his shortage of TD opps, but he was an unselfish player, content to thrive on the role assigned to him. Sorry for the length, love the blog. Your big pal in STL, Bernie.
Art joins a couple other decent Syracuse guys in the HOF. Although, the honor just got cheaper.
Both the Thomas and McDaniel omissions are egregious, but to me, the most deserving member who got left out was Cris Carter (though it might be one of those “he’s a HOF-er but not a first-ballot one” kind of arguments).
The Pro Football Hall of Fame is mostly a joke. This is just another proving point. Also, how did Tags not get in again this year? I mean, come on. If you’re going to put commissioners in the Hall, what more could you ask one to do than Tags did?
I have no idea if this is the case, but if they do consider character Tippet’s reputation and work for the Patriots might have put him over the top. I met him once when he spoke about the importance of Judaism in his life in front of a group in high school (he converted after marrying his wife). He seemed like a great guy.
It can’t help DT to have an utter stooge like Bob Gretz making the presentation every year.
Joe, I assume you’re using total rushing yardage rankings here… those aren’t the best way to measure rush defense (or offense, for that matter), since they’re dependent on how many carries you (or the other team) have. In particular, a bad team will face more carries than a good team, because their opponents will be running out the clock more often; this also makes it look like bad teams have better pass defenses than good teams, which is ridiculous. Yards per play would probably be a better way to measure a team’s rush defense (or other facet of team play) – there are still some issues with that, but less of them.
Bernie, how would having Monk run deep routes on pass plays keep him from blocking on running plays? I’m by no means a football expert, so there could easily be a reason that I’m missing… what is it?
I would like to see you write about some of the morons allowed to vote for the baseball HOF. Every year some chucklehead votes for Travis Fryman or Chili Davis, while Hank Aaron or George Brett can’t get a unanimous vote. These clowns should be exposed and have their voting privileges ripped.
Here’s all you need to know about how much of a sham the selection process is.
Bob Hayes, the Cowboys wide receiver that changed the way defenses defend the passing game because of his element of speed, isn’t in Canton.
It’s an absolute joke.
I’m a huge NFL fan, but I just have a hard time getting worked up over the NFL HOF, not the way I do for baseball.
How does Cris Carter not get in? I don’t get that one.
Well Joe,
Now you know how we Jim Rice for the Hall guys feel–sort of. And if anyone feels Art Monk being in the Hall cheapens it, they are both mistaken as well as foolish. Regardless of the fact that his numbers may not be those of some of his contemporaries (Ellard, Chris Carter, et al), he was also on a team that stressed the run a lot more than Ellard’s Rams did. Monk also played on a team with Gary Clark and Ricky Sanders, and STILL somehow (must have been some cheapened stat totalling perhaps) to finish his career #1 all-time in Receptions. Monk wasn’t the beneficiary of the wide open game that was pretty much the norm for most teams right as he was winding his career down. He was always a class act, a tough player, and deserves his place in Canton. So he’s not Jim Brown when comparing Syracuse alumni–who the hell was???
I’ve called it the Hall of Fake for years… some of the writers in the room have held clear biases against players from individual franchises or leagues. And while the baseball HOF has its own anomalies, they are usually points of at least semi-legitimate debate. The football HOF leaves out people because, well, we are not allowed to know.
Dr. Z was so ticked about the cheap-shot blackballing of Bob Hayes, he resigned from the veterans’ committee. Where’s Curley Culp, the greatest nose tackle ever? Otis Taylor?
Dave Wilcox got in with two Pro Bowls, but five-time All-Pro Chuck Howley is out. Chris Hanburger was as good if not better thanWilcox and he couldn’t get in the top 15 nominees. Rich Jackson, Cliff Branch…the list doesn’t seem to any logical sense whatever.
Thanks to Bernie for that rare insight into the inner workings of the HOF committee.
Keith, Buddy Ryan had the simple answer as to why Cris Carter didn’t get in. He only caught touchdowns.
I’d love to know the real story of how Bob Hayes isn’t in there. Now THERE is a guy who changed the game of football, not unlike how Wilt changed the game of basketball. And if you’re thinking there is no way you can talk about Hayes and Wilt in the same sentence, then you are obviously not old enough to remember his anchor leg for the 4 x 100 meter relay team in the 1964 Olympics. Steroids, schmeroids, that was the fastest man who ever lived.
Finally, it’s so nice to see someone remember Curley Culp. He was not only the greatest nose tackle, but he invented the position. There too is a man who changed the game.
I’d take DT over Tippett, McDaniel over Zimmerman, and Carter over Monk any day of the week. Not to say that the three who were elected aren’t deserving, but I just don’t see how they got in ahead of the players at the same position who got snubbed.
The HOF has some “splainin” to do. Not that they will. But I figure once they decided that Paul Horning was worthy, after being banned for betting on the games, nothing from then on really meant much.
Who will be on their first ballot next year? I can’t imagine DT getting passed over again, especially when two lesser players get in this year.
Now that Dean is in then Neil Smith should certainly be inducted.
I’ve been watching football for 35+ years and my memory is generally very good, but when I read that list of inductees, my first reaction was, “Who the hell was Andre Tippett?”. I’ve pondered it a fair amount since and I still can’t come up with a clear mental picture. Can’t remember what number he wore, can’t remember if he’s black or white. I tried to remember what school he went to and my best guess was Alabama (it was Iowa, I wasn’t even close).
I’m sure Tippett was an outstanding player and my memory lapse doesn’t really prove anything, but I can honestly say that this is the first football HoF inductee who was active during my life that I’ve read about and drawn a total blank.
While I’m on the topic, Clay Matthews for the HoF!
Zimmerman was a member of two All-Decade teams, which is profound. He sealed off Elway’s blindside. If Zimmerman gave up three sacks a season, it was a shock. One of the most perfectly technical LTs in the history of the game. The only joke is that he didn’t get in until his 5th year of eligibility.
Tippett played on some truly bad NE teams. Take a look sometimes at the LBs who stood next to him, and the D-linemen who played in front of him. In a recent survey of personnel people who were asked to pick the best 3-4 front seven in NFL history, only Lawrence Taylor received more votes than Tippett, and Tippett’s vote total was well ahead of the OLB who finished third. I don’t believe in punishing players because they performed on bad teams. If anything, it made Tippett’s production even more impressive.
As for Bob Hayes, i supported him and voted for him. He got shot down on the final ballot. I still don’t know why. I recall some grumbling about his many dropped passes, but nothing more specific than that. I hope the Senior Committee takes up his cause again.
I don’t understand the NFL HoF at all.
The award given for the best punter each year is the Ray Guy award.
Ray Guy is not in the HoF.
THEY NAMED THE AWARD AFTER HIM!!!
Being born in 1985 Derrick Thomas makes up 99% of my early football memories. He is the reason I still love football today. Every year passed that he does not gain entrance into the hall I die a little inside.