OK, my first reaction: That new Cherry Chocolate Diet Dr. Pepper sounds entirely disgusting. Am I wrong here? What, now we’re mixing cherry and chocolate and whatever the hell Dr. Pepper is together, I mean, is this some sort of high school chemistry lab deal? How about some Lemon Cheesecake Royal Crown? Tobacco Almond Fanta? Broccoli Cheddar Cheerwine?
BUT, then I started thinking about it. And I realized something: I have absolutely no idea what flavors are in Dr. Pepper. None. If someone asked me to describe Dr. Pepper, I would say, it’s sort of, kind of, a, well, it’s not exactly root beer, no, not really close to root beer, and it’s not a Coca Cola type product, not at all, and it sort of has a cherry taste to it, sort of, but it’s not a cherry soda, not even close to a cherry soda …
And after a while I realized that Dr. Pepper is sort of the Zelig of carbonated beverages — it’s really a little bit of everything. I mentioned one of my favorite Peanuts comics the other day, the one where Linus is drawing something and when Lucy asks what it is, he says that he’s waiting for someone to tell him. Well, that’s Dr. Pepper. It’s whatever you want it to be. In fact that should be their slogan — Dr. Pepper, whatever you want it to be.
“I feel like drinking something sweet!!”
Drink Dr. Pepper.
“I want something that goes with Buffalo meat!”
Drink Dr. Pepper.
“I feel like something that sounds like the blues!”
Drink Dr. Pepper.
“I want something that tastes like old shoes.”
Drink Dr. Pepper.
Where you look, that’s what you’ll see
Drink Dr. Pepper.
It’s whatever you want it to be.*
*Permission to use this jingle can be arranged for surprisingly little cash.
Anyway, my point is, that it’s possible that the genius who runs Dr. Pepper — and you know the guy is smart, I mean, he has a doctorate *– might have taken advantage of this. He might have just released the same old Dr. Pepper thing, but now they’re calling it “Cherry Chocolate.” Hell, that’s as good a description of the taste as any other.
* I realize that by referring to Dr. Pepper as “he,” I was making an unfair gender generalization that could get them to yell about me during the next Democratic debate, and I apologize. But no matter how I tried the joke did not work in any “He or she” form. And it wasn’t that good a joke to begin with.
* * *
Yes, I’m in Cincinnati now, doing some important research for the upcoming book on the 1975 Cincinnati Reds. Today, for instance, I found out that Skyline Chili is still delicious. I realize there are some people on this board who do not appreciate Skyline Chili, and I’m not here to argue who is right or wrong because my addiction to Skyline goes way beyond that.
I’ll put it to you this way: I went to my old Skyline Chili — the one that was across the street from my old apartment in Blue Ash. OK? I have not been in there in almost 10 years. I have not been in there regularly since 1996. OK? I walk in, sit down, order my three way (hint: You CHOP the fork when you eat a three way, you don’t TWIRL) and my chili cheese sandwich and my Diet Pepsi (no Coke products in the Skyline).
I eat my food. I walk to the counter. And suddenly, I feel like some people are staring at me. I look over, and there’s the owner of the Skyline — remember, I haven’t seen him in at least 10 years. That’s 25 pounds ago, a goatee ago, a few strands of hair ago. He’s staring at me. And what’s more, he’s got some people around him. His family. Children. Grandchildren. LIke six or seven people. And THEY’RE staring at me. Very odd.
I pay, and start to walk out, and all they while they’re all staring at me. Finally, I turn to them and give them my best, “OK, you’re really creeping me out,” smile. And then then the old man says, “Welcome back, Joe.”
And they keep staring at me through the window as I walked out to my car.
THAT’S how much of a Skyline Chili eating legend I am.
* * *
I’m proud to say that the 20 Greatest Home Runs Ever list here has sparked a bit of a bloggy trend — I’ve already been emailed Top 20 Cardinals and Cubs home run lists, and I’ve got to believe that there will soon be a Top 20 Red Sox home run list because, as you might know, there are approximately 49.4 bajillion Boston Red Sox blogs out there.*
*By the way … anyone else excited about the Boston-New York rivalry now coming over to football for the Super Bowl? I’m dying to read and hear just a little bit more about how Boston and New York are different cities. Hell, who am I kidding. I’m sure that will be my Thursday or Friday column during Super Bowl week.
Anyway, this led me to thinking that it might be fun to list off the 20 greatest pitched games in baseball history. I figured that could be a lot of fun — get Don Larsen in there, Kerry Wood’s 20 K game, Jack Morris’ Game 7, Mike Scott’s pennant clinching no-no, a little Bob Gibson and Mickey Lolich, maybe David Cone …
Then I thought: Hell, that will take forever and I need to work on my book. Maybe I’ll do that later.
For now, I looked up how many times (since 1957) a pitcher has thrown at least a 11-inning shutout — we’ll call them “long shutouts.” Well, that’s kind of interesting, right? Answer: It has happened 44 times. The last time was in 1990, when Dave Stewart threw 11 shutout innings against Seattle. He only threw 129 pitches, so that’s not bad at all.
The time before that was 1980 — when Jesse Jefferson threw 11 shutout innings against Oakland. What a bizarre game that was. Jefferson came into that game 6.09 ERA. After that game, he had a 5.69 ERA. And yet that day, he went 11 innings, struck out 10, allowed just four hits, was incredible. It’s like Joe Garagiola always says, baseball is a … what is that Joe Garagiola always says?
The best two long shutouts probably both belong to Juan Marichal. In 1966, he famously locked up with Jim Bunning — he threw 14 shutout innings, struck out 10, walked one, gave up only six hits, amazing. Three years earlier, he even MORE famous locked up with Warren Spahn, threw 16 innings of shutout ball to win that one.
Only four players over the last 50 years have had two long shutouts in their careers.
- Juan Marichal.
- Whitey Ford. In 1959, he threw 14 shutout innings against Washington (with 15 strikeouts) to beat the great Bill Fischer, who now works with the Royals. By all accounts, Fischer is a great guy, and I’m hoping to do an extended interview with him during spring training because he was involved in many great baseball moments (he was the one who gave up the homer to Mickey Mantle that many believe was the longest ever hit). In 1964, Ford threw 11 shutout innings against Washington.
- Joe Coleman. He threw a pair of 11-inning shutouts — one at Minnesota in 1972, the other against Boston in 1974. Coleman was a good and durable pitchers in the 1970s for Detroit — he was Top 10 in innings four straight years. I can fully understand why big time stars of the past might look at the game today, see what the players are making, and just feel sick. But to me, someone like Joe Coleman is the kind of guy who really lost out. Do you know how much money Joe Coleman of, say, 1972 would have made in this year’s market? He won 19 games, had a better than league average ERA, threw 280 innings, struck out 222 — I’m thinking eight years and $132 million.
- Bert Blyleven. Ah, well, you knew there had to be a point to this, didn’t you? Put another line on his Hall of Fame resume. He threw 11 shutout innings against Milwaukee in 1975 (struck out 13) and 11 shutout innings at the New York Mets in 1978. And you know what that means — over the last 50 years, the only man in baseball to throw long shutouts in both leagues is … would someone put this man in the Hall of Fame already?
Other long shutouts worth noting:
– Jerry Walker, 1959, threw 16 shutout innings to beat the Chicago White Sox. Bizarrely, he was never the same after that day of brilliance. He finished off that year 0-2 with an ERA north of 6.00, won just three games the next year, and bounced around for four more years after that.
– Lew Burdette, 1959, threw 13 shutout innings in one of the most famous games ever — that’s the one where Harvey Haddix threw 12 perfect innings, and then lost in the 13th when he gave up a run-scoring double to Joe Adcock. But what’s worth nothing here is that Burdette gave up TWELVE hits. Now that’s a scattering. Burdette did induce three double play grounders.
– Haddix, of course, became famous for pitching the greatest game in baseball history and losing. But he did have one long shutout — in 1957, he threw 11 innings, allowed eight hits, and then in the 11th he led off with a single and his pinch-runner scored the winning run.
* * *
Some of you longtime blog readers might be looking at the Bob Gibson intimidation discussion and going … wow, that sounds familiar. Yeah. I wrote that blog post about that in May of last year. For fun, I have followed this with a repost of that old intimidation blog. Intimidation! For excitement! And emotion!.
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36 Comments, Comment or Ping
rpa
mmm… skyline sounds good right now. wonder if they’re still open (one of the benefits of being here in cincy… it’s about 3 blocks from here).
actually, that cherry chocolate dr pepper sounds pretty good to me, but unfortunately, i can’t have the caffeine. it’s hard enough to find caffeine free dr. pepper in general. i can usually find it when i travel to slc (for obvious reasons), but past that i usually can’t get it. oh well. don’t need the sugar anyways.
oh yeah, baseball. lots of guys were never the same after those 16 inning starts. it’s just that most of them occurred in the minors so you never heard of them.
i still think the problem is that, these days, guys come up to the majors at 22 or so and don’t do their 2 or 3 years in the bullpen (see ryan, nolan and many others) before they’re expected to throw those 10-inning starts.
that’s why, as a reds fan, i don’t freak out when they ask bronson arroyo to go 9 and 2/3, because he was brought in to the majors the right way.
i wonder how many of the old-timers who threw those 10 and 11 inning shutouts started in the ‘pen when they came up, rather than going straight into the rotation.
Jan 23rd, 2008
Dan
Love the Skyline! I’m a Cincinnati native (grew up in Wyoming) now living in Virginia. My best friend lived in Blue Ash. Is that Skyline you speak of on Reed Hartman, just off Cross County? (Er, sorry… Reagan Highway…)
Anyway, enjoy the chili and the Reds history. I’m envious!
Jan 23rd, 2008
ajnrules
Wow, never knew that about Blyleven, but we all know that some of the anti-Bert writers are just going to counter it by saying, “Joe Coleman isn’t in the Hall of Fame, so why would that make Bert Blyleven special?”
It’s tough being a Bert supporter. Now you should find some awe-inspiring statistic to support Tim Raines.
Ah, Jerry Walker. One thing he did do in his remaining years after throwing that long shutout was tossing another 4 shutout innings against the Kansas City A’s to get a save for Early Wynn’s 300th win.
Here’s another surprising fact: Juan Marichal’s 16-inning shutout against Spahn was the 50th of his career. That’s probably the best-pitched milestone win in baseball history.
One thing that I learned during my 4 years at the University of Virginia was that THE Dr. Pepper got his medical degree at the UVA School of Medicine. Of course, I later learned he had nothing to do with the drink, but his name will live on.
Jan 23rd, 2008
Boss Cox
I live in Cincinnati, and eat at Skyline about once every fortnight. Actually, I eat at Skyline at least once every fortnight. Yet, I still have a container of Skyline Chili in my fridge, just in case I need a quick fix. I know that frozen Skyline isn’t the same, but even the modified version is better than anything else I could buy at the store.
Actually, that got me thinking of a good question. What else out there is better in it’s lesser form than any alternative?
The Beatles b-sides are better than the competition.
Michael Jordan sick in Utah was better than any other player.
Give me reheated LaRosas over the comp.
Any Ideas?
Jan 23rd, 2008
Minda
1. Dr Pepper tastes like Heaven. Especially when you get the real stuff, the kind only found in Texas that’s made with pure cane sugar instead of high fructose corn syrup.
2. No fair, Joe. When I research the Reds, there is no chili of any sort involved, just the occasional bottle of water and maybe a handful of Chex Mix.
Jan 23rd, 2008
Aaron
I would like to point out that proliferation of Dr. Pepper in the South, especially Texas, and how it’s somehow intertwined with Southern (and Texan) arrogance has led me to NOT drink Dr. Pepper as a sort of uber small scale (albeit petty) boycott against aforementioned arrogance, despite the fact that I currently live in the birthplace of Dr. Pepper (Waco, Texas).
And I don’t find introducing Cherry Chocolate Diet Dr. Pepper as absurd as the recent Diet Dr. Pepper commercials which are somehow supposed to convince the viewers that this drink tastes just like their favorite sweets.
Jan 23rd, 2008
mojo
I believe Jim Maloney of the Reds took 2 no-hitters into the 10th inning. Won one, lost one.
Jan 23rd, 2008
Dan V.
It’s my opinion that the more qualifiers a soda has in front of its name (Cherry Chocolate Dr. Pepper is a great example) that the soda itself has a lower quality because it needs more junk instead of one distinctive flavor.
Also, chocolate? Really? They’re just making it even more into a liquid candy bar.
(Also, ajn, stop following me places!)
Jan 23rd, 2008
bulb
Driving through Wacko Waco on a road trip from Austin to Jackson, MS, I saw a weird weird Baptist Billboard Basically black with the words Like I said
–God or something to that affect. But this is all precursor to discovering that Dr. Pepper was invented in Baylor-town. It makes a good poker game too (jokers + 10s/2s/4s wild look at an old school bottle some time). There’s even a Dr. Pepper museum and, better yet, The Free Enterprise Institute on the 3rd floor “created in 1997 for the purpose of educating Texas school children and adults about the economic system that underlies American life”. Just remember as Elvis intones “No dancing/There’s gonna be no dancing.”
The Dr. Charles Pepper is from SW VA; they sell more Dr. Pepper in the Roanoke Valley than anywhere else in the world.
Jan 23rd, 2008
Mike
Could you just save time and put 20 of Pedro’s starts between 1999 and 2001 into the top 20 pitched games? I submit his gem against the Yankees, http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/NYA/NYA199909100.shtml
One hit, 17 K’s. And my favorite fun fact: of his last 52 pitches, NONE of them were hit into fair territory. The last 11 batters recorded 9 strikeouts and 2 foul pop outs.
Jan 23rd, 2008
Devin McCullen
To me, the weirdest thing about the New York-Boston revival in the NFL is Tom Brady spending a few days staying at his girlfriend’s apartment in Manhattan. There’s just something wrong about that.
Jan 23rd, 2008
Paul White
“The score was tied at seven aa-aaalll, when Franklin saw he had the ba-all. He made a connection in the other direction and the crowd started shouting out, Interjections!”
You wanna go Schoolhouse Rock, Joe, and I’ll be here all damn day.
Jan 23rd, 2008
Josh from Boston
Allow me to expound on the Boston New York Rivalry.
Okay maybe I won’t.
The best game I ever saw pitched was Tom Seaver’s 299th win (which was at Fenway Park).
It wasn’t a shutout but both he and Oil Can Boyd were still in the game after nine innings. Oil Can gave up a run in the top of the tenth and Juan Agosto pitched the bottom for the save.
Seaver then went on a three or four game winless streak before picking up number 300 in New York.
(I guess this was a NY Boston post but at least I mixed in Chicago.)
Jan 23rd, 2008
John
The sooner the Super Bowl is out of the way, the sooner we can start reading about pitchers and catchers reporting. In fact, I nominate “pitchers and catchers report” as the most pleasing words in the English language.
The greatest game ever pitched happened at Yale Field during the baseball strike in 1981. Ron Darling and Frank Viola’s classic matchup best reported in one of Roger Angell’s books (Late Innings, I think). Darling pitched 11 no-hit innings for Yale but lost 1-0 to St. John’s and Viola in the 12th. I don’t remember if Viola went the distance.
Jan 23rd, 2008
JT
I don’t think this Super Bowl will match the 1912 World Series in Boston-New York annals. But maybe it will.
Jan 23rd, 2008
Brian
I always preferred Gold Star myself…. the wife Skyline, the old Skylines were better (cafe style, grumpy waitresses etc..) especially the one in Milford, Fairfax and Anderson.
I can smell it in the air as soon as I hit town… but I don’t eat meat anymore so I have to go to Skyline and go with the black bean version.
It’s a weak replacement, but a smoother ride through the night.
Jan 23rd, 2008
antoniomo
Hey, a vegetarian Skyline?! Through all of Joe’s hosannahs to Skyline I figured I’d always be a spectator, since I don’t eat meat. But now Brian says there’s a black bean version. Weaker replacement or not, if I ever go through Cincinnati I’ll have to try it.
Jan 23rd, 2008
Perry
Confirm that on Maloney, he did take 2 no-hitters to extra innings. If memory serves, he lost one to the Mets in the 11th, completed a 10-inning no-no vs. the Cubs.
My favorite “long shutout” is actually only 9 1/3 innings, by Claude Osteen, a rather routine 4-hitter. The cool part is that he entered the game in the 14th inning! And didn’t get a decision. Sept. 11, 1974, Cards 4, Mets 3 in 25 innings.
Jan 23rd, 2008
Oddibe Kerfeld
Dr. Pepper was born in Waco, TX. It’s also the birthplace of Steve Martin and Jennifer Love “Fruit of the Loom” Hewitt.
Don’t you want to be a Pepper, too? Umm…I’m not sure. What does that mean?
Jan 23rd, 2008
Mr Wrestling II
If you are referring to the 1953 homer Mantle hit against the Senators, then the pitcher was Chuck Stobbs. It supposedly went 565 feet. I read somewhere that the Yankees publicist (Red Patterson??)just pulled that number out of his … err, hat.
The 1963 Marichal gem was in his ROOKIE season, so the above comment was incorrect regarding it being his 50th victory.
I absolutely LOVE your blog Joe. I feel like something is missing in my day if I don’t read it. Please keep up the good work.
p.s. If I buy the O’Neil book from Amazon and ship it to you, will you autograph it? (postpaid of course). Thanks.
Jan 23rd, 2008
Mr Wrestling II
Oddibe Kerfeld. What a name of 80’s Texas and Houston baseball fans……
Jan 23rd, 2008
John R
FYI Joe, Fox Sports Ohio is reruning classic Reds games on Monday nights.
2/25/08 8:00pm 10/14/1975 World Series game 3 vs. Boston
3/3/08 8:00pm 10/21/1975 World Series game 6 vs. Boston
3/10/08 8:00pm 10/22/1975 World Series game 7 vs. Boston
If you’re in Cincinnati then they should be easy to catch. If not you’ll have to have that satellite sports package that gives you all the regional Fox Sports.
Jan 23rd, 2008
ajnrules
Actually, Juan Marichal’s rookie season was 1960. A search on Baseball Reference Gamelogs confirms that the 16-inning game on July 2, 1963 was indeed his 50th win.
And ? @ Dan V.
Jan 23rd, 2008
C. Trent Rosecrans
joe,
first off, a little ap style — no period for dr pepper
and i love diet cherry vanilla dr pepper, so i’m gonna have to give the diet cherry chocolate dr pepper — i haven’t seen it in person yet, but you can be sure that i will get some when i see it
also, would love to get skyline with you while you’re in town. although, my home skyline is clifton and ludlow — even though i do live just down the street from camp washington chili now, i still prefer skyline — especially the extreme three way with the habenero cheese
Jan 23rd, 2008
James
Shoot, I thought I was going to be the first anal retentive type to correct the period in Dr Pepper.
I’m still the first to reveal the secret flavor, though. It’s prune.
Jan 23rd, 2008
Dave E.
Mentioned this before Joe, but your Skyline is my Skyline. And, yes, 10-year-later-recognition is rarified air.
My question, though, is did/do they just bring you your order? I love that.
Jan 23rd, 2008
Joe
Joe,
I love Dr. Pepper. I love Diet Dr. Pepper. I like the Berries and Cream Dr. Pepper. I like the other one - I think it’s Cherry Vanilla Dr. Pepper.
I HATE the Cherry Chocolate Dr. Pepper. Undrinkable.
Jan 23rd, 2008
jim willoughby's 'do
ny vs boston? well, that didnt take long: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22792627/
my money would have been on chb to fire the first trite, pointless, beaten-to-death shot across the bow (i kno you like him joe; on this we must agree to disagree), but no one churns out trash like this bozo. and just think, we have another week & a half of this nonsense to look forward to…!
Jan 24th, 2008
El Lay Dave
In 1985 Fernando Valenzuela threw 11 shutout innings against the Mets, but got a no-decision in game that the Mets won in the 13th. Doc Gooden had nine SHO IP of his own.
Jan 24th, 2008
Adam Poling
I grew up with Mike Scott as my favorite player, I even got to meet him once as a part of a make a wish organization. So I’m happy to see him mentioned in the discussion for greatest games ever pitched.
Jan 24th, 2008
Dan V.
ajn:
You know me from another site… probably better known as kefkafloyd. :V
Jan 24th, 2008
ajnrules
Ohhhh. I see. It’s been so so long I’ve gone to that site. It’s interesting that we meet up again here of all places. :p
Jan 25th, 2008
Brad, Grand Rapids
Joe…thanks for givin’ some love to Skyline! It’s been 22 years since I’ve moved from Cincy (with stops in Chi-town and KC) and I can still taste that magical flavor.
A three-way, a slab of Gates’ ribs, accompanied by a Hudephol and a Boulevard Wheat is the perfect meal (in my mind) to enjoy while listening to a ballgame on a summer night.
Jan 25th, 2008
Joe
If the new Diet Cherry Chocolate Dr Pepper is anything like the old Canfield’s Diet Cherry Chocolate Fudge Soda from the 80’s, then be afraid… be very afraid. (Something about the word “fudge” just made it that much less appetizing, too. Fudge doesn’t belong in a drink.)
There are claims on the Internet that Canfield’s once had a Diet Peanut Chocolate Fudge Soda, too - but fortunately for my faith that God is no sadist, there doesn’t seem to be hard evidence that such a thing really existed.
Jan 25th, 2008
jambolyajones
Interesting thoughts on the taste of Dr. Pepper.
I recently read a book called, “Blink: The Power of Thinking Without Thinking.” This author has a chapter about soft drinks and marketing experts.
He says 80% of Americans can’t tell the difference between Coke and Pepsi in a blind taste test.
We really don’t care what we are drinking, we just know that our brain likes sweet drinks–everything else is marketing.
Jan 25th, 2008
daedalus
I’ve lived in DC for a few years and every time I get together with people from Ohio - and more specifically Cincy - we inevitably talk about Skyline. Last summer I visited Cincy to see some Reds games. It was more than 90 degrees, humidity dripping through the sky like some hungry dog’s drool, and I got a three way anyway - ate it right there in our leftfield seats, my forehead a waterfall and my clothes as if I’d just pulled them from the Ohio. Miss that stuff when I’m away!
Jan 26th, 2008
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