Today’s blog is a special St. Louis edition because tonight I accepted an award on behalf of Buck O’Neil at the St. Louis Baseball Writers’ Dinner, which (I had no idea) is an enormous event. More than 1,000 people attend this crazy thing, Bud Selig spoke, the head table was like three decks — it went higher than Big Mac Land. So while, yes, I was at the head table with Albert Pujols, Ozzie Smith, Red Schoenidienst, Tony LaRussa and Bob Gibson … I probably did not get within 60 feet 6 inches of any of them. That head table was bigger than Decatur.
I love events like this because I love hearing old baseball stories. I can’t get enough of them. Other people may not agree — in fact, I’m quite sure they don’t agree — but I wish our newspapers had many, many more articles featuring old guys telling great stories.
Anyway, that’s all this will be … a bunch of funny stories and opinions from the Baseball Writer’s Dinner in St. Loo.
* * *
As you might imagine, there were many Bob Gibson stories told on this night. I think it’s possible that Bob Gibson has inspired more stories than any pitcher in Major League Baseball history, which the possible exception of Satchel Paige (who wasn’t in the Majors very long) and maybe Dizzy Dean. Everybody has a Gibson story — some story about his toughness, his stare, his competitiveness. He was a great pitcher with a greater aura.
Anyway, Gibson said something that I found hard to believe — he said that he probably did not win 10 games in his entire career that he did not finish. I thought that had to be an exaggeration … and it was, but only to a point. By my quick count, Gibson won 54 games that were not complete games. At least some of those were relief victories and — again by quick count — he went 8 2/3 three times and 8 1/3 three other times. And most of the non-complete game vitories happened early in his career — that is before 1968.
In the prime of his career, Gibson’s exactly right — he completed almost every single game. In 1968, he won 22 games — ALL were complete games. That year, he had a stretch from June 2 to August 19 where he started 15 games, won 15 games, completed 15 games and had an 0.68 ERA during that time. You’re not likely to find too many pitchers that dominant.
Then in 1969, he won 20 — all complete games. In 1970, he won 20 — 17 were complete games. In 1971, he won 16 — all complete games. I mean, the man was increcdible. In 1972, at age 36, he had another incredible stretch beginning in late May. He started 11 games, won all 11 and comleted 10 of them with a 1.39 ERA.
In addition to the regular nine-inning complete games, he had (at least) nine extra inning victories.
At the event, Jay Randolph asked Gibson about pitchers today not going the distance, and Gibson said something great for a former player. He said, “Pitchers get a bad rap, but it’s just that the game has changed.
”I used to get tired in the seventh inning too. And the manager would come to the mound and ask me if I wanted to come out. Then I would look over at the bullpen and see who was warming up. Then I would say, ‘No, I’m going to stay in.’“
* * *
Incidentally, the quotes on this blog are approximated — I didn’t have a tape recorder going and I didn’t take intensive notes. I hope to get the essence.
* * *
Lou Brock said that sometime early in the 1974 season, he was talking with National League President Chub Feeney — he was congratulating Feeney on Hank Aaron breaking the home run record and all that did for baseball. Brock says Feeney then told Brock it was time for HIM to make some history — by breaking the single stolen base record.
”I was 35 years old at the time,“ Brock said. ”I thought breaking the stolen base record at 35 would be like a 10-year-old horse winning the Kentucky Derby.“
If you look at Brock’s career — you would have to say that while he was a very good player, he had never stolen more than 74 bases in a season — which was 30 fewer than Maury Wills modern baseball record. He had only played in three All-Star Games. He had done quite a few nice things in the game — and he was a force of nature in the 1967 and ‘68 World Series — but he had not yet done anything historic, and the way he explains it, he was not sure if he had that in him.
He did not steal a base his first six games of the season. But, he says, people kept pushing him, telling him that he could break the record, and he started stealing bases like a madman — from April 13 to May 19, he stole 27 in a row. And he started to think he might do it. It wasn’t easy — Brock got thrown out quite a bit the rest of the season. But Red Schoendienst told him to keep running, and he kept running, and of course he stole 118 bases, which was the record until Rickey came along.
* * *
Ken Reitz on his 1980 All-Star season: ”Funny story … I got back from the All-Star Game, and not long after that Whitey Herzog came up to me and said that I wasn’t going to play anymore. And I didn’t.“
He didn’t. Reitz was traded to the Cubs that winter (along with Leon Durham) for Bruce Sutter. Anyway, Herzog doesn’t deny that’s exactly what happened.
”I used to shave before games,“ Herzog said. ”And once Reitz was up at the plate, and he hit the ball, and by the time he got to first base I had to shave again. That’s when I told him he wasn’t going to play.“
* * *
Line of the night has to go to Tony La Russa, who was talking about his loving relationship with baseball writers. He was saying that despite his reputation as anti-media, he chose to be there at the Baseball Writers dinner rather than accept another invitation.
”I should say,“ La Russa said, ”that my other option was to go hunting dogs and cats with Scott Rolen.“
* * *
Mike Shannon told a story I may have heard before and is probably exaggerated, but it’s exactly the kind of story I like anyway. He says that Billy Williams was at the plate, and a pitch was outside, and umpire Doug Harvey called it a strike. Shannon later walked off to Harvey and said it wasn’t a strike, and Harvey said it was a strike because he SAID it was.
”Who are you, God?“ Shannon asked. Lots of players called Harvey, God.
Harvey took off his mask. ”Yeah,“ Harvey said. ”I’m God.“
”Well,“ Shannon said, ”could you make it rain then? I’m 0 for 2.“
* * *
And a few tidbits:
– Ozzie Smith said he played with a torn rotator cuff from 1985 to 1996. I had heard this before, but if you think about … that’s absolutely amazing. Could you imagine the pain making that shortstop throw every single day with a torn rotator cuff? It was often said during his career that Ozzie almost never showed off his arm — it was assumed that he had NO arm there toward the end. Well, yeah, torn rotator cuffs might do that to you.
– Tommy Herr took no credit for his 110 RBI season in 1985 because there were a ”smorgasbord of RBI opportunities out there.“ Well, as you know, we’re studying this stuff now … Herr should give himself some credit. He was +21 RBIs for the season, which is terrific. Some of this may have had to do with the speed he had on base and Whitey’s aggressive style. But I would say most of it is that Herr got runners in from third (52% — outstanding percentage) and, hell, he did hit .356 with runners on-base.
– Bud Selig didn’t really say anything especially newsworthy other than, not sure if you know this, baseball is really popular right now. The most newsworthy Bud moment happened when Mike Shannon said that, like Harry Truman, Bud would not be appreciated until after he retired. In fact, he would be remembered as the greatest commissioner in baseball, maybe the greatest commissioner ever in sports.
Without commenting on that, I will say Bud somehow managed to get out of snow-and-misery covered Wisconsin to attend the banquet, so good on him.
– Apparently Albert Pujols fired a few salvos at the media because of those false reports that linked him to the Mitchell Report. Hey, I don’t blame him one bit. I really don’t. Everything he said, from what I can tell, was dead on. Someone irresponsibly reports something like that about you, hey, you have every right to feel bitter and angry, every right to attack the credibility of those people who slandered you, maybe even sue them.
But me, personally, I think I would have advised him to let it go. No, that’s not an easy thing to do. But my theory about media and marketing is that people as a whole are not especially careful readers or followers of the news (here I’m not talking about the brilliant readers of this blog). Today, the story is, ”Albert Pujols lashes back at people who connected him to Mitchell Report.“ But over time, some of those specifics may fade, and suddenly there’s just some hazy thing about Pujols and the Mitchell Report and denials and something or other.
My other theory is that people often will forget stuff, if you let them. I don’t blame Pujols for what he said — he had every right, and it was a human reaction. If I was his friend, I would have told him to just say, ”I don’t intend ever intend to tell you how I feel about that because it hurt me and it was wrong.“
Loading ...
39 Comments, Comment or Ping
Aaron
Never met Mr. O’Neil but he seemed to be an affable person.
Regarding Bob Gibson, have you seen anything on youtube with him? I just saw the 17-strikeout World Series performance he put on, and i don’t know if the camera is just screwed up, but he seemed to be throwing blazing stuff with a knee-shattering curve thrown in.
Jan 22nd, 2008
McKingford
Great stories.
That’s really something about Gibson. I took a look for myself on Baseball Reference. As if it couldn’t be more amazing, in 1968, 5 of his complete games were extra inning affairs - including one where he pitched 12.
Wow.
Jan 22nd, 2008
berkowit28
Great stories. You might want to note that every double-quote mark is facing backwards, FWIW.
Jan 22nd, 2008
Aryeh
Great post Joe!! This is one of my favorite yet (and that’s saying something).
For those of us who were just a little too young to remember it/be aware of it - how the heck did Ken Reitz get named to the 1980 All Star team. His stats are, um, medicore (and that’s only if medicore is really a euphamism for bad).
Maybe Reitz went in over Ted Simmons as the lone Cardinal? But I can’t figure out, for the life of me, why Simmons, who was great in 1979 and in 1980, was not on the team himself. Simmons WAS an All Star in 1979 and 1981 (as well as a bunch of other times). Can you clue us (me) in on how Reitz made the 1980 All Star team and how Simmons didn’t?
Thanks!
Aryeh
Jan 22nd, 2008
Clayton
Wonderful piece. Bob Gibson was da bomb and stats don’t begin to tell half of it. On a good day, Tim McCarver can.
Ken Reitz was a brilliant third baseman, defensively. Probably the best in the national league at the time. I don’t know that I’d say he was better than Schmidt, but a lot of guys get blocked out of gold gloves by playing in the wrong era (Brooks Robinson vs. Graig Nettles/Auerilio Rodriguez). Looking back on it I certainly would compare Reitz favorably with Rolen.
Jan 22nd, 2008
Pete Ridges
If I were Scott Rolen, my autobiography would now be called “Hunting Dogs and Cats with Tony LaRussa”.
Jan 22nd, 2008
Pokey Joe
I’ll echo the comments about Ken Reitz. They used to call him “Zamboni” because he swept everything up. Of course, his range was a little lacking…
LOVE this kind of stuff. And I love how much baseball is appreciated in StL. Truly America’s best baseball city. Which they’re going to need this year, I’m afraid.
Jan 22nd, 2008
SBG
Tommy Herr. Least favorite Twin, ever. Got off the plane, announced he didn’t want to be here and slouched through the rest of the 1988 season.
Jan 22nd, 2008
Paul White
I find all of the talk about how intimidating Gibson was a bit odd in that it’s almost exclusively based on stories and memories of his career, and isn’t really backed up by any statistics. For instance, while Gibson hit a decent number of hitters, he never led the league in HBPs and was regularly trailing Don Drysdale and Jim Bunning and others, generally by pretty wide margins. None of this is to say that Gibson wasn’t, in fact, intimidating, because he was. But I find it odd that we seem to accept the stories about Gibson being the most intimidating pitcher of his era without any serious attempts to back that up with statistics, as has been done with other player’s reputations.
Jan 22nd, 2008
David G.
Reitz got off to a really hot start in 1980 and even though he had slowed down by the ASB that’s all people remember. He was batting .417 on May 7th and on June 1st was 378/410/500. I imagine he was getting a lot of positive press at that point. So nobody realized that from then until the ASB on July 6th he hit only 162/179/231. Apparently Whitey noticed though.
Jan 22nd, 2008
Byron
Tony LaRusa and Ozzie Smith were sitting at the same table and you don’t have any stories about that?
I picture Smith hurling butter knives at LaRusa and Tony bobbing and weaving to get out of the way.
Unless, they buried the hatchet and I don’t know about it.
Jan 22nd, 2008
Butch
My favorite Bob Gibson quote:
“I’ve played a couple of hundred games of tic-tac-toe with my little daughter and she hasn’t beaten me yet. I’ve always had to win. I’ve got to win.”
Jan 22nd, 2008
JT
Reitz wasn’t the only Cardinal on the 1980 All-Stars — George Hendrick was there too. But Schmidt was injured as I recall so he started the game. Reitz usually seemed to come flying (as much as he could) out of the gate, he’d almost always be in the first “League Leaders” that were published three weeks or so into the season. So he must have sustained it a bit longer that season before fading to his usual .270.
Jan 22nd, 2008
Paul White
Ken Reitz at the 1980 All-Star Break:
.282/.311/.381
4 homers, 33 RBI
Ron Cey at the 1980 All-Star Break:
.260/.344/.422
12 homers, 36 RBI
Color me baffled.
Jan 22nd, 2008
Snowman
That Bob Gibson quote is like the polar opposite of the “Old Ballplayers Never Die” portion of Bill James’ Historical Abstracts. Really nice to hear a comment like that every now and then.
Jan 22nd, 2008
JT
Maybe Reitz finished second in the fan vote (which they put more importance on back then), or maybe he was a Chuck Tanner favorite.
Jan 22nd, 2008
Max
I wish everytime a reporter put a microphone in front of Bob Feller, they would reconsider and put it in front of Bob Gibson. I love hearing that guy talk.
Jan 22nd, 2008
Byron
Joe, quick question about the Marino anecdote from the other day (the one where he yelled at you for interviewing Daly on the course): was Marino doing it to be an asshole, or were you guys talking when others in the foursome were addressing the ball, about to shoot, etc.?
Not that I have any love for Marino (I think he’s a grade-A ass) nor do I think that you were in the wrong (reporters have to get their interviews where they can, I completely get that) but the story needed a bit of context.
Jan 22nd, 2008
D.B. Cooper
It was a pro-am. Everybody’s talking all the time at those things.
In any event, it seemed clear (to me) that Marino’s complaint had to do w/ Joe talking to Daly on “Marino’s time,” rather than on a point of golf ettiquite.
Jan 22nd, 2008
Minda
D. B. Cooper,
You missed the part where Joe is apparently a “Dickbag” for the incident. Never forget that.
(Sorry, I just really wanted to use that word.)
Joe,
Great post. Of course all of us here love old baseball stories; that’s why we bought TSOB! I agree that Pujols could have just let the false Mitchell report connection go. At this point all the attention is on Clemens; I hadn’t even thought about those initial false reports about Albert since I read the report and found it to be Pujols-less. He is absolutely right when he says he’s been proving his talent to us with his performance all these seasons, but there’s no need for him to be so defensive when he reminds us of that.
Jan 22nd, 2008
Noel
Thanks again Joe!
Count me among those who love old sports stories in general and baseball stories in particular.
I wish the various announcers who do games would give us more behind-the-scenes stories like that. Granted, priority one is to talk about the game going on, but sports like baseball & football generally provide time for anecdotes.
I think that’s one of the (many) reasons people tire of Morgan & McCarver, etc. They probably have a wealth of stories to share but usually resort to cliche & mind-numbing “analysis”.
Jan 22nd, 2008
Kyle
About Albert Pujols . . .
I am an avid news follower and even more avid sports news follower. Frankly, I forgot about the false reports involving Pujols just as I think most people did. The only things that reminded me of it were this blog and reading the article in the newspaper about Pujols kicking the Fox station out of his news station.
In light of recent events I come to the conclusion that everything Joe has said is true and that the only thing reminding people about the false report is the person who despises it the most, Albert Pujols.
Excellent Post keep them coming and I’ll keep reading them.
Jan 22nd, 2008
Brad
Great stories, Joe.
Glad to see you can come over to this side of the state, be bombarded with Cardinal stories and live to tell about it. Just wondering if the dinner had a sign that said “Best Dais In Baseball.”
Jan 22nd, 2008
Tobias
Joe,
On what basis could Selig be considered the best commissioner ever? He’s a tone deaf old man who’s out of touch with the average fan. And how about the way he scowled in reaction the Bonds’ record breaking home run. There’s a reason he gets booed every time he’s announced in front of a stadium crowd. When the event’s not a thousand-dollar a plate event like the one in St. Louis, baseball fans everywhere voice their hatred for Selig.
Jan 22nd, 2008
Jeff P.
Paul, you are forgetting that back then batting average was the end all be all of stats.
.282 > .260
Jan 22nd, 2008
El Lay Dave
Love the stories.
Aaron (first comment) - there is nothing wrong with your picture. Do not adjust the monitor. That is exactly Bob Gibson.
Joe quoted Marino as saying “some of us paid good money…”. It is at least within the realm of possibility that Marino was sticking up for the less famous amateur member(s) of the group, but I doubt it, otherwise Joe wouldn’t tell the story the way he did.
Noel, we in L.A. are spoiled by having Vin Scully as our hometown announcer. He is unmatched at weaving the background story with the play-by-play.
Is a “dickbag” perhaps a “scumbag” earlier in its lifecycle?
Jan 22nd, 2008
Josh
Per urban dictionary…. Dickbag = another term for a dickhead, but slightly more offensive.
Basically a high schoolish insult… it is either new or old as I had never heard the term… maybe regional…
Jan 22nd, 2008
Aaron
Not to knock Bob Gibson, but I don’t think he would pitch complete games today. Reason being baseball paid peanuts and if you made it to the Majors you still had a winter job, unless you were a star. Who would want that kind of life? Not everybody, that’s for sure. I would say we missed out on probably a few legendary players before 1980, and it is also the same reason that we have so many good players now. If I offered you $30,000 plus a per diem to play for me, there would be a lot of people say no. Now if I offered you $10M, I bet everyone says yes. Simple economics.
Jan 22nd, 2008
Aaron
Forgot to finish my post…
So the players who played in Gibson’s era weren’t necessarily the cream of the crop.
Jan 22nd, 2008
Snowman
I think that by admitting the game has just changed, he was admitting that he probably wouldn’t finish so many today.
Jan 22nd, 2008
Jim
For what it’s worth, Whitey managed 73 games in 1980. Reitz played in all 28 games Whitey managed before the All-Star break, and in 39 of the 45 games he managed after the break. Reitz sat for three straight games in August a couple of weeks before Whitey kicked himself upstairs to GM.
Jan 22nd, 2008
cardsfanboy
well the dinner wasn’t $1000 a plate (I paid $150 per plate)
second Gibson wasn’t saying he would finished the game because he was tough or anything like that, but because in that era the bullpen was comprised of bad pitchers, there were few good relievers because they would go on to be starters if they were any good.
as to not cream of the crop, there is a good argument that they were the cream of the crop, there were fewer players going to football, basketball or golf or any other sports.
as to the intimidation thing, the number of hit batsman gets brought up everytime that it’s mentioned, but intimidation isn’t about hitting the guy, it’s about willingness to come inside with control. Great pitchers like Gibson were not afraid to come inside and had confident in their ability to NOT hit the player but still scare him. That is intimidation. You come inside, make the guy scared of being hit, and then you have mastery over the entire plate, something you don’t see today because the mlb pampers the players.
as to Selig, not sure how out of touch he is with the average fans, as baseball has set an attendance record for it’s fourth consecutive season, interleague play is loved by average fans(not old fogeys of course, but who really cares about that subset?) the all star game “this time it counts” generates newspaper articles every year that is free publicity whether or not it is the best way to determine home field advantage. You have baseball opening in different countries (which may upset some people, but on the whole is a great thing) sure you have problems that bud caused (although a tie all star game isn’t one of them, I just wish people would shut up about that one, that is not evidence of a bad commissioner not in any degree) MLB.com is a huge money maker for MLB and he managed to get it to be a shared revenue stream which was tremendous savvy on his part. The salary cap attempts have been a joke of course, but at least it’s an effort better than in the past where good teams got richer and poor teams got poorer, and contrary to NFL claims baseball enjoys the highest parity of any of the four major sports. Bud Selig will probably go down as one of the best commissioners when it’s all said and done, and that is from players, fans and owners perspective.
Jan 23rd, 2008
Paul White
I guess I wasn’t clear on my point about intimidation. I agree, it’s not about hit batsmen and Gibson was intimidating. We know this because batters he faced said so. What I find odd is that now, in the age of trying to quantify everything on a baseball diamond with a number, no one has tried to deconstruct the “Gibson was incredibly intimidating” stories, at least not that I’ve seen. I wonder why that’s just accepted while other players’ reputations are beaten with a bag of decimal points. For the most part, while I think those kinds of critiques sometimes go overboard, I’m still glad they happen. I just don’t know why Gibson seems to be exempt from them.
Jan 23rd, 2008
Joe
Hmm, that’s a good question as to how you’d go about measuring “intimidation” from a pitcher. I’d probably start with something like strikeout rate and batting average against - how hard was it to make good contact against him?
It’s interesting to note that Gibson never led his league in K/9, though he was perpetually up there with the leaders, and only once led in fewest hits/9 IP. From 1961-9, a reasonable definition of his prime, he was seventh in K/9 among pitchers with at least 1000 IP, behind Koufax, McDowell, Veale, Maloney, Lolich, and Tiant. He was fifth in hits/9 IP behind Koufax, McDowell, Tiant and Siebert. (It should be noted that Gibson pitched significantly more innings than any of the above, though.)
What else could make a pitcher “intimidating?” Well, there’s hit batters, like Paul said, in which, again, he never led the league, and was fifth for 1961-9 behind Drysdale, Bunning, Cardwell, and Kaat. There’s complete games perhaps - maybe the “iron man” is considered intimidating - in which Gibson led the league once, was second or third a bunch of times, and was second for 1961-9 behind Marichal. Notice though that he never once led the league in IP. There’s shutouts - Gibson does shine there, leading the league four times and again finishing right behind Marichal for his prime years.
From the basic statistics, I’m not sure there’s anything pointing to Gibson being unusually “intimidating” by any definition of that word that means something other than “pitched really well, and had strengths in both power and stamina measures.” You could try to look for starters who took the day off when he was pitching, perhaps, but lefties like Randy Johnson have such an advantage in that category that I’m not sure it’d tell you much. If you had modern pitch-by-pitch stats, you could look for guys who induce a high percentage of misses per ball swung at, but wouldn’t that just track strikeout rate again?
Overall I’d have to say it’s a good thing that Bob Gibson’s Hall of Fame case wasn’t borderline, so that arguments like “he was intimidating” didn’t affect voters’ judgment in fairly evaluating his career.
Jan 23rd, 2008
ajnrules
I’m guessing the intimidation comes from all the strikeouts in the World Series games? I mean, nobody really remembers specific pitching performances from the regular season unless it’s a perfect game or something, but you do something in a big stage like the World Series, everybody will remember it. That’s probably one reason why people rate Mariano Rivera higher than Trevor Hoffman even though Hoffman has more saves, a higher save pct., and a higher K/9. Rivera has 9 World Series saves. Hoffman blew a save in his only World Series appearance. (And let’s not forget the 2006 All-Star Game, or Game 163 against the Rockies.)
BTW, Gibson’s K/9 in the World Series is 11.3. Koufax’s is 10.7, and Randy Johnson’s is 10.9.
Oh well. Doug Harvey should be in the Hall of Fame.
Jan 23rd, 2008
Aaron
didn’t Gibson’s (and to a lesser extent, Drysdale’s) intimidation come partly because you didn’t want to piss of Gibson and have him throw one of those rockets at your head the next time up? or is that a myth?
Jan 23rd, 2008
Creston
Tony La Russa is turning into the biggest flippin’ tool in baseball.
“Hey I’m here! Look at me! I came to your awards show! Ain’t I great?! Oh, and I hate Scott Rolen, and chased him away so we can now go with a steroids abuser who plays sucky defense, which will go really really well with our pitchers who can’t strike anyone out! I’m Tony La Russa baby! Someone get me some more wine!”
If he didn’t save puppies when he isn’t being a total tool, I’d hate his guts.
As for Pujols, I can’t blame him. The media needs to stop just posting every rumor as if it’s somehow corroborated truth.
Jan 23rd, 2008
michael
I think Gibson’s “intimidation” reputation also had to do with his demeanor. From what I’ve read, he would not even talk to his own teammates, much less his opponents, on days that he was pitching. He had a policy of never making friends with players on other teams. I think some of his intimidation reputation might be tied to his personality as well as what he was doing on the field.
Jan 24th, 2008
dgoold
Joe,
Thanks for making the trek over our way for the annual dinner. We’re proud of the event, and what guys like Bob Broeg, Rick Hummel and many others have made of it. And you’re welcome any time.
Just, sheesh, leave some stories for us to tell next time.
dg
Jan 31st, 2008
Reply to “St. Louis Special …”