OK, you can admit it … your first thought was that this was going to be about Rob Neyer. But it isn’t. And it’s also not about the old Dick Van Dyke Show, though it could be because I love that show, and I think that the young Mary Tyler Moore remains one of the hottest wives/moms in television history. The next Pozcars may very well have this question on it, so you might want to study up. Off the top of my head, you’ve got:
Elizabeth Montgomery, Bewitched
Mary Tyler Moore, Dick Van Dyke Show
Julia Louis-Dreyfus, Seinfeld (not a Mom or wife, but she gets special dispensation for her new show)
Meredith Baxter-Birney, Family Ties
Donna Reed, The Donna Reed Show (though you might have to go back to the Wonderful Life days)
Shirley Jones, The Partridge Family (though you might have to go back to Music Man days)
Yvonne De Carlo, The Munsters (though you might have to go back to Ten Commandments)
Jami Gertz (I never even saw that show so don’t know if she was a wife/Mom, but I love Jami Gertz)
Nominations are still open. And, for those women Pozcars voters, we’ll do the hottest husband/Dad voting too if you would like — everyone gets equal time here. I will say I don’t have any nominations at the moment.
As usual, I’ve TOTALLY lost my focus and now have to regroup.
OK, I remember now. I had a statistical revelation. OK, that’s probably exaggerating things since I wouldn’t know a statistical revelation if it knocked on my door and tried to sell me garbage bags or candy bars (I’m pretty sure that two statistical revelations have been by the house already tonight).
I’ve been thinking a lot about RBIs lately, probably because of the Jim Rice Hall of Fame argument which kind of went a little overboard. I kind of think that Hall of Fame arguments are fun, but that’s probably because I don’t really have anything too emotional invested in them. None of the players I grew up loving are especially compelling Hall of Fame candidates. I suppose I could fight for Buddy Bell. Yes, it does irritate me when people try to downplay Dan Quisenberry, who was a wonderful soul and was in my opinion every bit that reliever that Bruce Sutter was, and in the ballpark with Goose Gossage too. But it seems that ship has sailed.
Anyway, the emotion of the Jim Rice case became so heated that after a while you had some people who were arguing that Jim Rice was the scariest hitter who ever lived — a guy who could just look meanly at a baseball and make it turn and fly over the Green Monster so it could hide. And you had some people who were arguing that Jim Rice was plain awful — a guy who might never have made it out of Dubuque were it not for a good ballpark and a fawning press. Harsh words were spoken. Rivalries sparked. Cheek smacked with gloves. I’d like to say I was in the middle on it all, but I’m not — I leaned toward the latter, though I never felt any mean intentions. I didn’t vote for Rice, but I’m perfectly fine when Rice goes into the Hall of Fame next year. He won’t be the worst player in there by a long shot, and he has a compelling story. For me, it’s just that I like making up stats and poking fun.
Anyway, it was Rice again that inspired me to look into the stats. Here’s what I spent much of Monday doing — I downloaded from Baseball Prospectus every single year’s worth of ROBs — that means the number of “runners on base” when the player came up — along with a few other statistics along those lines. It took for-freaking-ever. Then I put them all in a Microsoft Excel file, which took even longer. And then I worked on the numbers for a while, which took even longer. As everyone here knows I’m terrible with numbers.
And then I had something that might resemble a breakthrough. I have absolutely no idea if it is a breakthrough, but for ME it’s a breakthrough because the number almost seem to add up. And I came up with a new stat. A plus/minus RBI stat.
Here’s how it works. Prospectus — God bless those good people — don’t just have plain ROBs for each batter each season. No. They have how many runners were on first base, how many runners were on second base, how many runners on third base. It’s pretty interesting invormation.
For instance, in 1990, Cal Ripken had 510 runners on base when he came up — 241 on first, 166 on second, 103 on third (that’s a HUGE number of ROBs, by the way). Ripken drove in 63 of those runners, which seems low to me (you will notice Ripken actually had 84 official RBIs that year — but 21 of them came when he drove himself in on home runs. So remember, for the purposes of this stats, we are not counting self-RBIs on home runs).
I thought: That seems like a low number of RBIs for Ripken, considering how many runners he had on base. But is it low?
Here’s what I did — well, I did a lot of things that did not work, or worked but did not seem all that interesting. Finally, I did this: I took all 5800 seasons I have since 1959 (those are only seasons with 500 or more plate appearances), and I took an average of how often (percentage-wise) batters drove in runners on first, runners on second, runners on third. This average includes EVERYBODY, from Belle to Belanger.
(The average batter in this group drove in 56 runs, plus homers. So that’s 56 RBIs — and you can add homers if you need that to get your bearings. This would mean a guy who hit 24 homers, would have 80 RBIs. A guy with three homers would have 59 RBIs. That’s the average).
Here are the percentages I got.
Runners on first — Drove in on average, 5.3%
Runners on second — Drove in on average, 17.1%
Runners on third — Drove in on average 38.0%
Now, you’re seeing it. I multiply the percentages by the number of runners on base, and I get how many RBIs an average everyday Major Leaguer would be EXPECTED to drive in over the years. So Ripken drove in 63 runs in 1990, but according to my tragically flawed stat, Ripken would have been EXPECTED to drive in 80 runs — 17 more.
And that’s it. Ripken scored -17 RBIs in 1990. With all the runners he had on base, he should have driven in (with homers) 101 RBIs. This was, in fact, a HORRIBLE RBI season for Ripken, who was, after all, viewed as an RBI man. It is, in fact, ranked as one of the worst RBI seasons of the last 50 years.
Isn’t this great? It’s a plus/minus system, like hockey. I know there are a million flaws here, and I’m sure all of you will poitn them out between belly laughs. But you know what? It’s late at night. I’m tired. I worked WAY too hard on this. Let me go on thinking this is a great stat for a just a little bit longer.
OK, so now you want some numbers. I have more than 5800 seasons in my database. I’m not going to type those out. I’ll give you a few tidbits:
* * *
Start with Jim Rice since he inspired it all. Here are his plus/minus RBI numbers during his 12-year stretch:
1975: -+6 RBIs
1976: +2
1977: +14
1978: +24
1979: +22
1980: +4
1981: -8
1982: +7
1983: +16
1984: +17
1985: +3
1986: +6
Well, that looks awfully good there. The RBI prime — 1977-79 — is impressive. He also had a couple of nice RBI seasons in 1983 and 1984. Rice seems like the kind of player who would score well in this because he didn’t walk much — walks being RBI killers.
Maybe it would be good to compare this with Mike Schmidt who was viewed as the best slugger of the time and DID walk a lot.
Mike Schmidt
1974: +9
1975: -18
1976: +2
1977: +5
1978: -8
1979: -3
1980: +9
1981: +9
1982: -5
1983: +6
1984: +1
1985: -2
1986: +10
1987: +13
Well, what do ya know about that? Schmidt only had two double digit RBI seasons, and those were at the end. Not looking to make judgments yet, but Schmidt relied a lot on those homers to boost his RBI totals.
How about George Brett? (I only counted seasons where batter got 500 or more PAs)
George Brett
1975: +12
1976: +1
1977: +13
1978: +7
1979: +18
1980: +38 (one of the best seasons ever)
1982: +1
1983: +16
1985: +17
1986: +8
1987: +4
1988: +14
Well, yeah, Brett’s numbers are enormous. The guy came through an awful lot.
* * *
Now, the 10 best RBI seasons since 1959:
1. Tommy Davis, 1962 — +41.
– Of course, this was the incredible season when Davis drove in 126 (plus his 27 homers for a total of 153). Davis drove in 30 percent of the runners on second base he saw that year, which is just sick. The average for driving in a runner from second over all the years is, as mentioned, just more than half that.
2. Tony Gwynn, 1997 — +41
– Some people forget that HUGE RBI season for Gwynn. He hit 17 homers and drove in 102 more. Give him a runner on third base that year, he drove in the run an absolutely ridiculous 63 percent of the time.
3. Hal McRae, 1982 — +40
– Hal actually had seven plus-RBI seasons, but this was by far his best. He led the league with 133 total RBIs (including homers), and he drove runners in from first 15.1% of the time, which is the highest total of anybody since 1959. That tells you that Willie Wilson, Brett and Amos Otis were REALLY running on those Hal doubles.
4. Dante Bichette, 1996 — +39
– Coors Field had a lot to do with it, no doubt. But that’s still 31 homers and another 110 runs knocked in.
5. George Brett, 1980 — +38
– He only got 515 plate appearances too. I’m told that for fun, some players reps prepared a faux arbitration case concerning Brett’s 1980 season, just for fun. He, uh, would have made a lot of money in today’s game.
6. Magglio Ordonez, 2007 — +36
– In case you are wondering, Alex Rodriguez was +24 in 2007.
7. Andres Galarragga, 1996 — +35
– Coors again. Someone will have to figure out how to get some ballpark factors in here.
8. Mark Teixeira, 2005 — +34
– Nothing too interesting to say here.
9. Jason Giambi, 2000 — +34
– I’ve written this before, but I’ve always wondered … when Jason and Jeremy Giambi were kids, and they were playing baseball with their Dad, which one went to the outfield to shag flies? I suspect: Neither. I’ll bet they both had bats and just spent afternoons whacking baseballs back and forth.
10. Frank Howard, 1962 — +34
– Now, that’s one scary hitter.
* * *
And the 10 worst RBI seasons since 1959
1. Mark Belanger, 1968, -27
– Bad hitter, worst hitting year, yeah, you’ll get numbers like that.
2. Don Wert, 1968, -27
– Ditto.
3. Bobby Grich, 1973, -25
– Didn’t see that one coming.
4. Ivan DeJesus, 1978, -25
– Did see that one.
5. Sonny Jackson, 1966, -25
6. Royce Clayton, 2003, -25
7. Jim Landis, 1960, -24
8. Aurelio Rodriguez, 1971, -24
9 . Tim Foli, 1975, -24
10. Felix Fermin, 1989, -24
* * *
I’ve got LOTS more, of course. But I’ll wait to see what you think of this mathematical crime — and take a few requests — before posting any more on this. Kind of fun though, no? Or would your rather talk a little Mary Tyler Moore?
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111 Comments, Comment or Ping
Josh L.
Probably many flaws with this, but one right off the bat is one you pointed out yourself: if a player walks, he did not have an official at-bat, nor a chance to drive that runner in. Those times up to bat need to be subtracted from the original “expected” number derived from how many ROB there were (and including where the ROB were located).
I like the idea behind the stat. I’d prefer a percentage of runs driven in over runs expected to be driven in, since the plus-minus system rewards guys who have more at-bats (and hence, do not walk much). “1″ would be average. Nice work!
Jan 16th, 2008
Josh L.
Or rather if it were a percentage, 100 would be average. Maybe it is too late for me to be posting.
Jan 16th, 2008
Rob
Great Stuff Joe,
That’s a fun stat, and some of those seasons like Tommy Davis are just eye popping. Not so much eye popping being the light hitting infielders dominating the bad season list, although the Grich was a surprise, it was right at the outset of his career. Love the blog, Joe, keep up the good work, and feel free to do a blog about Rob Neyer, that guy shouldn’t even have a HOF vote, he’s a seamhead stat-boy pansy (and I have appraised him of that more than once via e-mail).
Jan 16th, 2008
Aryeh
Joe -
Thanks as always for the fantastic work. Re: improving the stat I agree with Josh L’s comment that walks need to be deducted from times at the plate with runners on base (though a Yankees fan I’m good friends with used to try and convince me that Dimaggio was better than Ted Williams BECAUSE he wouldn’t take the easy way out and walk. Whatever)
I also second the idea of normalizing the stat by dividing by Expected # of RBI - also Josh L’s suggestion.
One other suggested improvement - if the data exists at all - would be to refine it and look not only at runners on base but runners on base with 0, 1, or 2 outs. If the overall likelihood of driving in a runner from third is 38% it’s obviously going to be very different if there are 2 outs vs less than 2 outs.
Very interesting stuff!
Aryeh
Jan 16th, 2008
Steven
Mary Louise Parker, Weeds. (Just trying to get us back on topic.)
Jan 16th, 2008
Brandon
Shamyl Brown, The Wire. (thanks Steven.)
Jan 16th, 2008
Snowman
I…. I…. I think Joe just proved Rice was clutch.
My world is crumbling before my eyes….
Jan 16th, 2008
Mike
“I…. I…. I think Joe just proved Rice was clutch”
No. Good hitters will have high RBI+ numbers because they are good hitters, not because of clutchiness.
I would actually disagree that walks should *necessarily* be subtracted from the calculation. Now stop throwing things and hear me out. It’s that “situational hitting” thing that BP tried to quantify in Baseball Between the Numbers. Not all walks are created equal. Bottom of the ninth, game tied, runners on 2nd and 3rd. A walk isn’t nearly as useful in terms of winning the game. It gains little and opens up a DP possibility. On the other hand, leading off that same inning, a walk is priceless.
I always thought win percentage added was a more useful stat to measure this sort of thing. But it’s kind of awkward and doesn’t really convey how many extra runs a hitter is putting on the board.
Also, your stat can’t measure how many times opposing coaches thought about walking anybody with the bases loaded.
Jan 16th, 2008
Paul O.
I’m sure Connie Stevens must have played somebody’s mom at some time, so I nominate her.
Jan 16th, 2008
Lou
mmmm, Patricia Heaton
Jan 16th, 2008
dlf
If possible, I’d take out IBBs, but not unintentional ones. (And yes, I know all about the unintentional-intentional walk.) Why? Joe isn’t trying to create a total player value statistic. We should all know that walks have value. What this looks for is relative performance in *driving in runs* and nothing else.
Back to the old Bill James standby Runs Created, the numerator was basically an advancement element multiplied times reaching base. Joe’s off the cuff stat is a modification to the advancement element trying to get at the actual payoff of runs rather than the theoretical one of a league normal value for total bases. I think that someone better than I am (including most random 11 year olds and virtually every blogger who is either a Kuiper fan OR can even hum along with ’70s commercial jingles) with the Retrosheet data base could tweak this a bunch and get actual bases advanced. That is if Bob comes to bat with someone on first 10 times, how many times does he leave him at 1st, how many times does he move him to second, third, or home, and how many times erase him on a double play. Add all the bases/outs opportunities and you get a more precise base advancement metric than the theoretical league average that BJ used in RC. (Of course that would still be affected by the baserunning ability of other players, park effects, and the like.)
But even if you jumped through the hoops and did that, you would not move any closer to something that measures actual payoff of a run scored. Joe’s simple stat (said respectfully oh great blogger) does that well. The only thing really missing - and its pointed out in the George Brett comment - is opportunities. Being +10 in 100 ROBs is different than +15 in 200.
P.S. Definitely Elizabeth Montgomery. The way she twitched her nose. Mmmmm.
Jan 16th, 2008
Clayton
It’s a great run at a new stat, Joe, and Josh L. has some very nice suggestions. A problem with this, and one more geared towards showing the inherent limitations of statistics rather than the utility of any particular given statistic…like the Indian chief who laughed when they told him about molecules, and they go, “You think that’s wrong?” “Nah, not wrong, just inadequate.”
So anyway, walks. Anyone who’s ever played much knows you don’t want your big man to walk in a clutch situation unless he absolutely has to. Yeah, maybe if you have McCovey on deck it’s ok, but walks rarely demoralize the team issuing them. Thus the newfound popularity of intentional walks.
In manysituations (not if you’re leading off and two runs down, obviously) walking is passing the buck, and hugely overrated as an offensive stat. How could anyone ever be proud of themselves for walking with Eddie Brinkman or Rey Ordonez on deck? I think it was Tony Oliva, when asked why Caribbean players lacked plate discipline, explained that they’re trying to draw the attention of scouts and “No one ever walked off an island.” Or drove in three runs with a walk, or caused anyone to drop their plate of nachos with a walk, or caused the entire defensive team to shiver with just the sound of a walk.
Games are won and lost by particularly agitated molecules, it’s just us on the sidelines who think we can boil it down to the sedentary representation of numbers (please, some physicist jump and and tell us how the numbers on the page are really alive with electrons, too). It’s a fun exercise, and not a necessarily foolish one the better we get at it unless we actually start thinking that we caught something big.
Also, I’d vote for a bettter Pozcars question. As one of my friends once told me, “I don’t think I ever met anyone who didn’t wish that Elizabeth Montgomery was their mom.”
Jan 16th, 2008
JeffO
Carolyn Jones, Addams Family, no contest. (And now, at 50, why I’m not into whips and leather, I couldn’t say…)
Jan 16th, 2008
BrianD
Turn the number into an index or a rate. Divide the hitters percent driven in by the average. So Tony Gwynn’s sick season would be a 1.65, meaning he was 65% more likely than the average hitter to drive in a runner from third. This would eliminate the bias in the number of plate appearances and opportunities.
Jan 16th, 2008
Mike
Suzanne Somers, Step By Step.
Jan 16th, 2008
Adam Poling
Rebecca Donaldson from Full House.
Jan 16th, 2008
Paul White
If we’re going classic, then it’s Marjorie Lord from Make Room for Daddy.
If we’re going contemporary, then it’s Constance Marie from George Lopez.
(Oh yeah, nice stat Joe.)
Jan 16th, 2008
dave
Polly Walker, Rome
Lauren Graham, Gilmore Girls
Jan 16th, 2008
Oddibe Kerfeld
I’d like to talk about The Dick Van Dyke Show some more and the disturbing trend of TV Land and Nick at Nite going increasingly to bad shows from the 70s instead of classics from the 50s and 60s. I’ve seen enough Maude, Sanford & Son, and Good Times. Did they make a decision to stop running as many black and white shows?
Also, did anyone ever notice that sometimes Rob tripped over the ottoman on the intro and other times he skipped around it? Good show.
Jan 16th, 2008
John
The woman in My Name is Earl is hot, but I don’t stick with current shows so I don’t know the name of the actress.
Also:
Erin Gray from Silver Spoons
Jennifer Aniston, Friends (nuf ced)
It was a recurring role, but how about Janis Hanson (Felix’ ex-wife/mother of Edna and Leonard) on the Odd Couple
Betty Rubble
Jan 16th, 2008
Mean Dean
I think this is one of those situations where you left someone out of the discussion who wins the whole shooting match if included, that being: Mrs. Peel. Did Lois ever marry Superman on the show? And, uhhh, how about JAG, which was some sort of show on television? If they qualify, Teri Hatcher and Catherine Bell should at least be mentioned. But Mrs. Peel dominates the field in a manner that would make even Jim Rice weep!!!
I honestly think the stat is a major contribution to the field. As it is, it’s “only” a big improvement over regular RBI, or in other words, it’s a better counting stat. However, in addition to factoring in walks, and to making it a percentage of opportunities as suggested… if you’re going to use it to compare players to each other, I think you also have to stop implicitly comparing Albert Belle to Mark Belanger. “Clutchiness” for Rice would really be, not driving in more runs than “the average player” — you’d naturally expect that, since he had much more power than the average player — but driving in more runs than you’d expect Jim Rice himself, given his other stats, to drive in. So I would break down that 5.3%/17.1%/38.0%, try to get more specific estimates for a particular player (Belanger would be expected to drive in lower percentages than those, Rice mo), and compare the player to those estimates.
Jan 16th, 2008
Smed
I’m always intrigued by the trainwreck seasons, especially Enzo Hernandez’ infamous 1971 where he had just 12 RBI. He was the leadoff hitter (WHY???) and most of the Padres were horrific offensively that year, so I wonder what the +/- would say.
Jan 16th, 2008
wally
On the walks problem: What about the unitentional intentional BB? Can you really penelize a hitter that was thrown 4 strait pitches that are just a little low and out side because the pitcher doesn’t want give something up to the guy, but wants to take the chance that he’ll swing at a bad pitch? Maybe BB shouldn’t be completely taken out, but leaving them in completely isn’t right either. Personally I’d rather just take them out. If the batter never saw a hittable pitch, we shouldn’t penelize him.
And to the guy that said walks are overrated, that might be true in some circles (”ratedness” is of course relative to how an individual rates them and all people perceive that differently), but the bottom line is that in any situation increasing the runners on base, while not making an out, increases the expected runs scored in that inning. Even the runners on 2nd and 3rd with two out in the bottom of the ninth isn’t immune from this . As with the bases loaded you’ll still score more frequently than with just 2nd and 3rd (another BB scores, a HBP scores). And again your best slugger is going to get the unintentional intentional walk treatment if the next batter in no good, but he’s better talking the BB than making an out on a less then hittable pitch.
So, I just don’t see how we have any choice but to take BBs out of the equation.
Jan 16th, 2008
Andrew
What about Brook Jacoby, 1987?
Jan 16th, 2008
Mark
Great stat - I like your thinking here.
Why not also include homers by doing a percentage for batters standing at home plate just as you did for runners standing at each base. This will give you a full wholly normalized RBI statistic (though it takes away from focus on the ability to measure getting runners in - maybe you keep both stats).
Just a thought.
Jan 16th, 2008
David Pinto
Joe, you might find this program useful. It figures RBI percentage back to 2000. I might try to include your expected RBI in the calcuation as well.
Jan 16th, 2008
James
Cheryl Ladd on Las Vegas.
Also, Teri Hatcher is a mom on Desperate Housewives, so there’s her in Mean Dean.
How about a separate category for Mother/Daughter combos……
Cheryl Ladd/Molly Sims on Vegas has to rank right up there.
Jan 16th, 2008
SLH
Here’s a few more mom’s:
Patricia Heaton (Everybody Loves Raymond)
Patricia Richardson (Home Improvement)
Reba McEntire (Reba)
Helen Hunt (Mad About You)
Jan 16th, 2008
Arby Writer
Normalize to a percentage, to take into account ABs. Then compare Rice to others already in the HOF.
Jan 16th, 2008
smperk
I like Ayreh’s suggestion with outs, because a hitter has a different objective/technique with a guy on third and one out, than one with a guy on third and 2 outs.
Then again, we’d start getting into the score of the game, the inning, and then we’ll end up on “who’s more clutch” versus “who’s more consistent”….
Or I can just say Meredith on Family Ties brought me into adolescence.
Now my head is truly spinning.
Thanks Joe!
Jan 16th, 2008
Dave
Joe - Longtime Royals fan and Star reader here… I am SO with you on MTM. I thought I was the only one that found her smokin’…
I’d nominate Connie Britton from Friday Night Lights and Claire from Lost as well.
Jan 16th, 2008
MattG
I think another weakness to this statistic — that you alluded to in an offhand sort of way — is that it reduces, but does not eliminate, the effect of teammates on RBI totals, which is obviously the inherent flaw in using RBIs to as a measure of individual, isolated prowess. Hal McRae knocked in 15+% of the runners from first in that 83′ season, and you mentioned that the guys ahead of him — speedsters all must have really been hustling on those doubles. Therefore, even under with your new stat, those players who weren’t blessed with particularly fast teammates are penalized.
I will state for the record that I am VERY much an amateur at this, have a limited grasp of mathematics, may indeed be missing something, and have no concrete suggestion for improving the stat. I will also say that something about this stat “feels right”, in that I think it’s close to saying something important, but needs adjustment. I will also say that your blog gets me though the day — Thanks, Joe. (Also, finally bought your book. )
Jan 16th, 2008
Tim Lacy
JoeP,
Nice statistical work.
Your stat seems to measure how much any one player was disrespected as an RBI man by the rest of the league in any one season, or disrespected over his career. Respect is measured in BBs or IBBs. Not including walks explains why Bonds doesn’t come up in either your + or - categories.
By the way, I remember that 2003 season where Clayton was given a prominent role. Wasn’t it with the Dbacks, and they lost a boatload of games? Wow. He was disrespected and lived “up to” the disrespect!
That Brett came up in the disrespected class (I know, my classification) amazes me. This even when Sparky Anderson declared, I think in 1985 yes?, that he would NEVER pitch to Brett with runners on base ever again and never did.
Again, a thought-provoking post! Keep up the good work.
- Tim
PS - No comment on the hot tv moms/wives. It’s bit too imaginatively pornographic for me. - TL
Jan 16th, 2008
Greg Andrew
I used to do this 15 years ago - it was a lot harder then, but the info was available. My output was a bit different - I ended up with percentages, but it was more or less the same thing. The main reason I did it was to show that Joe Carter’s RBIs were not particularly impressive considering the huge numbers of opportunities he had
Jan 16th, 2008
D.B. Cooper
Suzanne Pleshette from The Bob Newhart Show.
Or, as I will never forget reading somehwhere, “the fetching Suzanne Pleshette.”
But yeah, Elizabeth Montgomery. Mmmmm.
Jan 16th, 2008
D.B. Cooper
As the McRae example shows, it’s probably important to (somehow) account for the runners on base — or at least accept that like RBI, +/- is a team-dependent stat.
Jan 16th, 2008
bulb
Teri Hatche’s in DH kinda obvious
but slightly more old school and obscure
Mary Page Keller in Duet (USA) but not Open House (USA) and definitely not Baby Talk (USA)!
Jan 16th, 2008
DC in VA
Great blog. Read it after turned on to it by stathead Neyer. Rice belongs and you just gave another reason for it. As for the real topic….
Patricia Richardson - Home Improvement
Dana Delaney - China Beach (I am sure she was someone’s mommy or wanted to be called that. (see exit to eden))
Jan 16th, 2008
Butch
Steven is dead-on with Mary Louise Parker in Weeds.
With apologies to Patricia Heaton, Courtney Thorne-Smith, Leah Remini and so on, I think we need to disqualify all actresses from the “fat comic/hot wife” sitcom genre. It must be stopped!
Jan 16th, 2008
Tim
I can’t believe no one has brought up Barbara Eden from “I Dream of Jeannie.”
Don’t forget she and Major Nelson finally got married toward the end of the show’s run.
I second Suzanne Pleshette (Bob Newhart show) and want to add in Mary Frann (Newhart). Boy, that Bob Newhart was a lucky guy.
Jan 16th, 2008
Dan
The stat is fine as is, Joe. Now its time to compare Rice to his contemporaries. We already know he blows away Schmidt, who is really the main guy in the majors who prevents Rice from leading both leagues in most of those stats rather than just the AL.
Jan 16th, 2008
H
It’s fine for deciding who’s the best “RBI man”, but I worry about anything that returns the focus to RBI. A players job isn’t simply to drive in runs but to get as many runs across for his team as possible. It’s nice that a player can drive in more runs by flailing at every pitch with runners on base, but what about the runs he costs the team by making more outs and not getting on base? I’d hate to think someone is going to use this as justification that Rice was a better player than Schmidt.
Plus the guys you’d really want to evaluate using this wouldn’t be walking to get to #7-#9 hitters, they’d be walking to get to #4, #5, #6 guys. Guys that are supposed to be trusted to drive in runs too.
Jan 16th, 2008
Terry Vetter
I am less of a numbers guy than Joe, but here is my thought on improving the stat - adjust the ROB number downward for the number of double plays a batter hits into. This stat improves for rbi performance, and the guys who top the list bat in the heart of the order where it is expected they are going to be given more chances for rbi’s. Figuring a way to punish the number for hitting into a double play would be useful. I thought this was where Joe was going to go because Rice was infamous for hitting into double plays - I was in Boston in the mid eighties and everyone said he should have his uniform number changed to 6 4 3. Because Rice was a hero of mine as a kid I want to see him in the HOF but if his ROB number adjusted for double plays becomes anemic I could see where it might be an argument to keep him a visitor rather than a member.
Jan 16th, 2008
Lisa G
not sure how to get around the walk problem, but i sure do get tired of people insisting that batters should swing at pitches out of the strike zone instead of walking.
what i would love to see a stat on is how many pitches out of the strike zone that are swung at go for hits
and hot moms/wives - yawn
hows about a heapin helpin of roseann barr? i hear she, uh, nevermind
now, for something completely different -
unfortunately, tv pretty much doesn’t have hot husbands/dads - not sure why. i guess because guys think that if they were hot they could go out and do a different grrrl every day and night. or something. so why have a house/wife/child at all?
but for hot husband/fathers - damon wayans in my wife and kids
darryl hughley in the hughleys
- no hot white guys i can think of are tv dads/husbands
Jan 16th, 2008
Brian
Call me crazy, but I always thought the Toolman’s wife Jill Taylor was nice. She wasn’t hot, or even all that cute for that matter. I’m not sure what it was about her, but she was a cool lady. Maybe it was the Holley double pumper episode that sold me. Or the fact that she drove a Chevy Nomad (until Tim wrecked it).
Jan 16th, 2008
Chad
I like the stat also, given some caveats for a walks adjustment, and a parks adjustment as mentioned by others. I also think you have to find a way to take into account the skill of the runners each batter would expect to have. On average it’s fine, but certain teams and batting positions will have a decided advantage for a player. If you make a direct comparison between 2 individuals it might be more clear how important the batting position/teammates aspect would be.
Jan 16th, 2008
will
Nice job including Donna Reed, she is too often overlooked in lists like these. I’d include Jane Jetson too but it seems that you’re leaving cartoons out of the equation.
Jan 16th, 2008
SBG
Mrs. Thurston Howell III. End of debate.
Jan 16th, 2008
Chris C
Agree with dlf about walks. The stat, at least as I understand it, is trying to measure how many more runs were driven in than the average, not how many “good baseball things” the player did that year with runners on base. Homeruns and walks are obviously important, but removing them from this stat limits the measurement to simply how many more runners scored as a result of balls in play. That’s a good thing, since looking at Ripken and Rice’s numbers leads to pretty straightforeward conclusions: Ripken must have had lots of high OBP players ahead of him and didn’t drive in what the average player would have, and Rice had similar advantages and drove in more than what the average player could have. I like it! I think that by limiting the variables you can do more with the stat, rather than arguing over the methodology. Real answers! Thanks Joe!
Hilary from the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air, in that universe, would have to be a mom by now, right? Good call on Jane Jetson, I’ll add Betty from the Flintstones to the Cartoon Hot Moms category.
Jan 16th, 2008
Brian
Will, if we’re going to include cartoons, Lois Griffin would have to come first. Then again, she would probably have to be disqualified based upon Butch’s “fat comic/hot wife” rule.
I always thought Mrs. Huxtable could throw a decent fastball back in her day. Bonus to her because she was a milf AND a grilf (GR = Grandma). I think I’ve said too much.
Jan 16th, 2008
Mark H
No hot white guys as dads? Got me thinking about Phylisha Rashad. Coz knew how to pick a partner, didn’t he?
Other Notables not yet mentioned (character names only):
Mary Ann
Daphnie (from Frazier)
Rosanne
Of course, once Sara Michelle Gellar gets a “mommy” role, the contest will be over.
Jan 16th, 2008
Ross
The desire to remove walks from the stat has nothing to do with some wish to reward walks because they are a positive event. It has to do with the nature of a plus-minus stat comparing to a baseline of average.
If a player comes up with a runner on third, the chance of that runner being driven in is 38%. If the runner is driven in, then the batter is rightly credited with .62 ROB, if not he is rightly penalized .38 ROB. But if the batter walks (or reaches on error, or is hit by a pitch or whatever) then the next batter has that same 38% chance of driving in the runner. The RBI expectation has not been changed compared to an average baseline because the batter has not made an out. It strikes me as similarly silly to penalize someone ROB for hitting a single with a man on first as well.
It’s more difficult to calculate, but I’d ignore all cases with a runner on base where there was neither an RBI nor an out recorded. It strikes me as very off to penalize someone in this stat when they haven’t changed the chance of an RBI occuring, or in some cases have greatly increased the possibility (single on which the runner goes from first to third).
And let me second Lauren Graham on Gilmore Girls as deserving of a hot mom Pozcar.
Jan 16th, 2008
Aaron
I thought that stat up last year, but I couldn’t find the data I needed and it kind of collapsed under its own weight.
Once you get the walks accounted for in the formula you also need to subtract the runners from being on base at those points. If Ripken walked over 100 times with men on base that would seriously skew those statistics.
The problem you are always going to come up with in this stat is that you need the specific AB details. I’m sure they are out there somewhere.
Plus, you could make this a lot more complicated. As in, you’re never really expected to drive in the guy from first base or yourself. But if a guy is on 2nd or 3rd, you are expected to (if you get a hit I mean). So a homerun and driving in the guy from first should be counted as EXTRA RBI’s (and only count as pluses) while the runners in scoring position could be the original stat minus walks and all that entails. If you can find the data, I think you’d have a helluva stat there. It basically measures the effectiveness of players at driving in runners on base without resorting to BA w/ RISP.
Jan 16th, 2008
Mark
-Veronica Hamel on Hill Street Blues (ok, so she wasn’t married to Furillo).
-Annette O’Toole on Smallville - she is still HOT after all these years.
-Barbara Billingsley - always perfectly coiffed, even after chewing out Wally and the Beav.
Jan 16th, 2008
John
don’t you need to account for outs just a little bit? driving in a runner from 3rd with 0 or 1 out is a whole different animal than two outs. This could also clarify/quantify some of the walk discussion since a walk with a runner on 2nd and 2 outs is much less valuable than a walk with a runner on 2nd and 0 outs, etc. Then again I have no idea if this information is available and whether over time this would change the analysis at all.
I was always partial to the short haired brunette with a kid on Law and Order. I think her last name in the show was Ross. Good times.
Jan 16th, 2008
Alex
Somethings will even out probably. Like how many outs does make a difference; but that probably evens out over a career or season.
Some things you have to account for:
The speed of the runners on base. Not sure how you would normalize this, but like outs, this might even out over a career. But probably not over a season. I’m sure it helped Tommy Davis that Maury Wills was on base for many of his RBIs.
Also, you need to account for the context of the season, instead of determining the averages for a span of years like 1959-2007. I’m sure the “average” or “base” RBI numbers will be higher in certain seasons simply because it was a better season for hitters.
But Joe, those tweaks aside, this is a great idea.
Jan 16th, 2008
Alex
Lauren Graham: Gilmore Girls. TV Hottest mom.
Jan 16th, 2008
Brian
always perfectly coiffed, even after chewing out the Beav.
Sounds like my prom night.
Buh dum bum.
Jan 16th, 2008
Dwight K. Schrute
I must be young, because I’ve seen exactly one of those wives/mothers mentioned (Julia Louis-Dreyfus - an excellent choice). I think Patricia Heaton from Everybody Loves Raymond has some milfish qualities, but the list begins and ends with Cheryl Hines from Curb Your Enthusiasm. She is a FOX.
Jan 16th, 2008
Josh
I was a big fan of Drea de Matteo (Sopranos) though I guess technically she didn’t quite make it to her wedding….
Jan 16th, 2008
antoniomo
Mel Harris: Thirty Something. Definitely.
Jan 16th, 2008
Royalfan
Jami Gertz is on Still Standing——sooooooo hot!
Also Leah Remini from The King of Queens, and the wife/mom on Yes Dear.
Jan 16th, 2008
Chris
Did somebody just vote for Kim Gordon?? Did Sonic Youth have a sitcom?? Am I thinking of the wrong Thurston??
Jan 16th, 2008
Alan in L.A.
Connie Britton, Friday Night Lights.
purrrrrrrrrrrrrr….
Jan 16th, 2008
Richard Aronson
Two things. First, obviously high slugging percentage guys are going to get more RBI from first base than Tony Gwynn or Tommy Davis. And yeah, having Maury Wills on first or second is going to lead to more RBI than Wade Boggs. We could compensate for this by weighting, since we expect runners on third to be driven in by anybody, but runners on second and first not so much. Or we could list each stat separately by base.
But for Jim Rice, it would really be valuable to compare him to his peers, the guys who were winning AL MVPs instead of Rice. Almost all of them were sluggers. So comparing Rice to Winfield, Murray, Evans, maybe Parrish, Reggie, Lynn, Baylor, Yount, would give those of us who weren’t in love with Rice’s HOF stats a reason to believe all the Rice ravers. If Rice was one of the best sluggers at driving in runs compared to the other sluggers, it’s a reason to reconsider.
Jan 16th, 2008
Mike Bagnall
If you’re taking ROB requests, how about comparing Ripken to Alan Trammell?
Hope Lange–The Ghost and Mrs Muir
Jan 16th, 2008
Henry
Batgirl. The TV show one.
Jan 16th, 2008
Martin Allen
I would agree that walks need to be factored into the equation; and then, the thing would have to be combined with another stat to get at a hitter’s real effectiveness, since this only measures his ability to hit relative to other players getting on.
More importantly, something has to be done to normalize for the different number of guys at each base that each guy is going to see; as it stands, guys who get up there with mostly guys at 3rd already are going to be penalized over those with mostly guys at 2nd, due to higher expectation. (And similarly for 1st.)
An artificial example, but one that illustrates the sort of skewed numbers you can get using your stat is as follows. Player A and player B both hit exactly the same with runners in scoring position: each gets 50 doubles, all scoring the runners, in 100 opportunities. In Player A’s case, all 100 opportunities come with players on 2nd base; since the expected rate is 17%, he gets credited +33 ROB. Player B, however, hits with all 100 runners on 3rd; since the expected rate is 38%, he only gets credited +12 ROB. A difference in 21 ROB points, even though both players drove in an identical number of runs by hitting identically.
Obviously, these sorts of extremes aren’t going to happen in real life, but the skewing effect will still be present to some extent. Since you get more than twice the credit for 2nd-base RBIs than 3rd, and even more for 1st-base RBIs, you’re actually at a disadvantage when players move up to 3rd before you come to bat, especially since it doesn’t seem on the face of it true that it’s actually more than twice as hard to get a guy home from 2nd as 3rd. While that might be true for singles hitting, since then it relies on runner speed and fielding, I’m not sure it’s true overall.
Or is that not an implication of your % numbers as well, since now we’re expecting players to perform situation-independently in accord with them?
Jan 16th, 2008
Max
Brooke Langton of Friday Night Lights.
Constance Marie of George Lopez Show.
Eva Longoria of Desperate Housewives.
Lauren Graham of Gilmore Girls.
Jan 16th, 2008
Randy
Let’s see, a stat on RBI efficiency that rewards players who don’t walk and play in hitters parks, and doesn’t penalize players who hit into lots of double plays. What single, near HOF player would benefit most from this stat?
Hmm….
Jan 16th, 2008
Kevin
Belinda Montgomery, Doogie Howser, M.D.
Jan 16th, 2008
Fran
Patrick Duffy was awfully cute.
I’m a big fan of Denis Leary but the quality is something other that hotness.
Richard Schiff as Toby Ziegler, of course
I think John Amos is very handsome. Wayne Rogers is cute & Mike Farrell is sexy.
I think I’d vote for Jimmy Smits, in any incarnation (Victor Sifuentes, Bobby Simone, Matt Santos)
Jan 16th, 2008
Kevin
Joe, the stat I think you are getting at is Most RBIs per opportunity. I found it detailed in “Baseball Scoreboard 2000″ from STATS, Inc. — a sort of Bill James production that used his stats in it.
RBI opportunities: The number of RBIs a hitter would have accumulated if he had hit a home run every time up, given the total number of players who were on base when he batted. No RBI Opportunties are charged if the batter reaches base via a walk, hit by pitch or defensive interference, unless a runner scores as a result of the play.
So this system adjusts for home runs and walks. That will change, for example, Rice and Schmidt’s numbers quite a bit. Schmidt hit more home runs and walk quite a bit more than Rice. Also, that season by Gwynn isn’t going to be as impressive, not a lot of homers, not a lot of walks.
1999
McGwire, 853 rbi available, 147 rbi, 17.2 pct.
Manny, 965, 165, 17.1
18 more rbi, but McGwire edged him out.
Walker, 731, 115, 15.7
Palmeiro, 985, 148, 15.0
He never did steroids. Period.
Ellis Burks, 651, 96, 14.7
Bonds, 598, 83, 13.9
102 games
Baines, 745, 103, 13.8
Sosa, 1,036, 141, 13.6
Jaha, 820, 111, 13.5
Yeah, that Jaha.
Giles, 854, 115, 13.5
Jan 16th, 2008
Doctor Tom
Your noting of Tommy Davis and his outstanding season raises an important question I’ve often pondered. What potentially great players experienced substantially reduced careers due to injury.
Tommy Davis has always represented a case of outstanding career potential cut short by injury. Cut short might not be the proper way to characterize what happened to Davis, but you get the point. He went on to play for a decade of so following his broken ankles, but in my mind, never approached what he might have been.
Leron Lee, an example of promising rookie never recovering from a beaning.
Thoughts, additions, lists??
Jan 16th, 2008
Chris
If you’re just comparing this to a baseline for all of baseball, aren’t high slugging % hitters supposed to drive in more than expected? A HR or double will get a guy home. I’d like to see a normalization to slugging percentage to produce an “expected RBI” based on that. Otherwise this stat is mostly rehashing other stats we’re already aware of.
Jan 16th, 2008
Langer
Following the heretofore Butch rule:
Lauren Graham, again.
Connie Britton, again.
And if anyone can figure a way to fit Amy Adams and Jewel Staite into this category, well then they tie for first.
Jan 16th, 2008
El Lay Dave
Florence Henderson, The Brady Bunch (esp. the early years). Throw her into the mom/daughter mix at the end of the series with Maureen McCormick (Marcia, Marcia, Marcia).
Susan St. James, McMillan and Wife
Amy Brenneman, Judging Amy
The previously mentioned Carolyn Jones is a great call.
Kate Jackson, The Rookies
Kim Delaney, in any show where she was a wife or mom
Jan 16th, 2008
Kyle
Top 3 TV MILFs in no particular order:
Rena Sofer, Heroes
Lauren Graham, Gilmore Girls
Mary Louise Parker, Weeds
Jan 17th, 2008
Kyle
Oh crud, make it top 5 MILFs:
Teri Polo, West Wing
Paula Marshall, Hidden Hills
Jan 17th, 2008
Kyle
Wait. I don’t think Marshall was a mom in Hidden Hills. Although she must have played a mom at *some* point, on one of the 5 billion cancelled shows she was on.
Jan 17th, 2008
Martin Allen
Oh, and best mom/wives? Perrey Reeves on Entourage, or Vivica Fox on Curb Your Enthusiasm. And a second vote for Cheryl Hines, also on Curb.
For guys, I go with Terry Crews of Everybody Hates Chris. Because that’s how I like it.
Jan 17th, 2008
Josh
I would also like to nominate Megyn Price “Grounded for Life”…
Jan 17th, 2008
denopac
There should be some kind of negative adjustment for DPs (a Rice specialty).
Connie Hines.
Jan 17th, 2008
ajnrules
I don’t really watch a lot of TV, but I would agree that Mary Tyler Moore was incredibly attractive when she was on The Dick Van Dyke show.
Anyways, there really isn’t anything else that I can add, so might as well ask what Ryan Zimmerman’s +/- totals were in 2006 and 2007. As a Washington DC resident and UVA grad, Zimmerman is pretty much the prized player in the area. However, his RBI total did drop from 110 in 2006 to 91 in 2007. It’s true that his batting average did drop 21 points, but there’s also the fact that the leadoff hitter for the ‘06 Nationals was Alfonso Soriano. In 2007, it was Felipe Lopez. So how much did this change affect Zimmerman’s expected RBI totals?
Jan 17th, 2008
Kev
Honorable Mention:
Helen Hunt - Mad About You
Judy Norton Taylor - The Waltons
Jan 17th, 2008
JB
Yes!! A Megyn Price mention. Definitely.
Also a big fan of Connie Britton (on Spin City, however)
And how about Sally Field? That is one attractive sixty-something.
In the cartoon category, definitely Betty Rubble. That Barney was one lucky caveman.
Jan 17th, 2008
Josh
Speaking of Betty Rubble she was based on Joyce Randolph “The Honeymooners”… and from some research Joyce Randolph was a good looking woman back in the 1950’s….
Jan 17th, 2008
Jackie Ballgame
Average ROB and RBI certainly vary from year to year. Are we (is Joe) calculating + and - based on each year’s averages? A hitter whose peak spanned an offensive period shouldn’t be compared to all hitters in the modern era. Apologies if this has been said (Am I required to read all 66 responses before posting mine? Probably…).
Also, it seems the wife/mom thing is getting out of hand. I’m a purist on this, the candidate has to be a wife or a mom. If we open it up to ‘all female television roles ever’ then we’ve got such a wide range we couldn’t possibly narrow it down.
Also, I don’t know about including hotness of said TV wife/mom prior to her role as a TV wife/mom. For example, Yvonne De Carlo, in her Ten Commandments days might well win this thing (do a google images search. deeeamn…). But as Mrs. Munster, not so much. AS wife/mom, Mary Tyler might have it.
Jan 17th, 2008
Jay
I like it. Another fun, off-the-cuff stat, and a reasonably reasonable one.
Thing is, even without looking, I just KNOW that those driving-dudes-in percentages have GOT to be a lot higher in parks like Fenway than in other parks. Would be interesting to see park-adjusted percentages (even just for 1/2 the home park factor) and then compare Rice against others again.
Anyway, even giving him full credit for “run producing” prowess, it still only cancels out the fact that his OBP is borderline pathetic as power hitters go.
When I get a spare moment, I’ll run the +/- on Casey Blake’s career, and then shoot myself.
Jan 17th, 2008
Andrew H
My first thought was how weird….Joe is going to have a post about my brother…how does he know him? Then reality set in.
Jan 17th, 2008
Jackie Ballgame
Right (re: Park Adjustment) — McCrae’s driving-in of 15% of first base runners probably had something to do with the challenging outfield at Royals Stadium in addition to the speed of Wilson, et al.
Jan 17th, 2008
Owen
My sentiment on both topics are 1) love it, and 2) let’s not try to make either into a catch-all. Yes the desperate wives of Desperate HWs are foxy, but isn’t the whole point of the show that all these wives are hot? (That question is only semi-rhetorical, because I’ve never actaully seen the show.) I think we’re looking for mom/wives that don’t feel like they’re necessarily SUPPOSED to be hot- they just are, and it’s one more reason why life is fantastic. MTM goes in the same category as Marge Simpson. The hotness is bonus. That’s why Elaine or whatshername from Cheers (not Kirstie Alley, the other one) fits the mold better than Claire on Lost.
As for the JoeBI, I also favor the narrow focus. I think the stat should (and basically does already) anwer the Q: Runners on, who do you want at the plate? Maybe a percentage would be more accurate, but there’s something appealing about the counting stat. Maybe they just feel friendly and familiar to me. Anyway, I think this is a great good+clutch stat. I don’t really care if Brad Ausmus’ BA jumps 50 points with RISP if he’s still only a .260 hitter. “Zambrano’s in a jam here, Ausmus is nearly league average in this spot.” Whatever. But if I’m a Cards fan, I’d really want to know Glaus’ JoeBIs for the last few years, because it’ll give you a sense of how much he’ll hurt the Albert-Walkers.
Great stat Joe. Right now I’m wishing I watched more shows with hot moms.
Jan 17th, 2008
Old Man Duggan
Aaron above said most of what I was going to say about runners on base needing to be taken out of the equation if walks are subtracted. The league average for the ROB would also probably need to be adjusted for each season, as different factors (i.e. mound being lowered, ball being juiced, new parks being opened) would more than likely affect the outcomes and averages.
As for hot moms, Cheryl Hines was never a mom on Curb, so she’s out. Seconds (or thirds or fifteenths) on Connie Britton, Erin Gray (good call, whoever had that one), Suzanne Somers, Mel Harris, Mary-Louise Parker, Teri Polo, Donna Reed, Vivica A. Fox, Jaime Pressly, Elizabeth Montgomery, and Rena Sofer.
By the way, no one seems to have mentioned Joanna Kerns, who at the very least was hotter than Meredith Baxter-Birney. Did Jessica Biel’s character in Seventh Heaven have a kid? If so, automatically number one.
Jan 17th, 2008
Old Man Duggan
Maybe Lori Laughlin, too.
It’d be funny to put Judith Light on there to see if she garnered any votes.
Jan 17th, 2008
Old Man Duggan
And Sela Ward has to have been a mother on something (Once and Again?). She’s hot.
Jan 17th, 2008
Old Man Duggan
And Charisma Carpenter’s character of Cordelia Chase had a kid on Angel, kind of…
Jan 17th, 2008
Old Man Duggan
And please, let’s not denigrate this potential Pozcar with any castmembers of Desperate Housewives.
And I think Jane Seymour is still out there.
And with that, I’m done.
Jan 17th, 2008
Max
Ah, right, OMD. Sela Ward and Jane Seymour definitely.
One more for Mary Louise Parker. Isn’t Elizabeth Perkins in that show too?
Are we allowed to count the numerous daytime soaps, too?
I think this thing is a goldmine. Joe can put a bracket ala March Madness and please, no play-in round for this one.
My money is on Lauren Graham and Mary Tyler Moore in the final.
Jan 17th, 2008
ajnrules
Actually, yes, Jessica Biel’s character did have a child in 7th Heaven.
Jan 17th, 2008
Max
Oh, shoot. the wife of Jimmy Smits’ character in Cane is very hot.
I think it’s Paola Turbay.
Jan 17th, 2008
Max
Holly Marie Combs of Charmed. She ended up being a mom in the later seasons, no?
Jan 17th, 2008
Mr Wrestling II
June Lockhart in either Lassie or Lost in Space
Jan 17th, 2008
Jeff P.
Joanna Kerns - Growing Pains
Ali Larter - Heroes
Marilu Henner - Taxi
Jan 17th, 2008
Rob
Dr. Tom wants to know about Potentially great careers ravaged by injury–a few come to mind immediately:
Tony Oliva
Lyman Bostock (who’s injuries were a bit more severe than Oliva’s, or anyone else’s, except perhaps Ken Hubbs)
Herb Score
That was with a few seconds thought, I’m sure with a minute or two more invested, I could recall a few more, say Mark Fidrych, perhaps.
Jan 17th, 2008
Dan
How about Pam Dawber on Mork & Mindy - she was mother to Jonathan Winters in the last season.
Jan 17th, 2008
Dwight K. Schrute
Old Man Duggan, Joe specifically said “wives/moms” so Cheryl Hines still applies. She is prettaaaaaay, prettaaaaaay, prettaaaaaay smoking.
Jan 17th, 2008
Clayton
“Dr. Tom wants to know about Potentially great careers ravaged by injury–a few come to mind immediately”
Pete Reiser
Bobby Valentine
Joe Lovitto
Fidrych, definitely
Steve Busby
…um…Larry Yount
Jan 17th, 2008
Brian
See the links below for my feelings on Cheryl Hines. I still think she’s hot, but I haven’t been able to look at her the same since my revelation. I hope I don’t ruin anything for you.
http://number1happyst.blogspot.com/search?q=chewbacca
http://number1happyst.blogspot.com/2007/03/cherylbacca.html
Jan 17th, 2008
Doctor Tom
Hey Rob and Clayton
Oliva really nails it on the Head! Thanks. He and Davis are a tandem in this regard, maybe Oliva even more so. He is on the cusp of the HOF and could have been one of the all-times if not for his knees, or the DH a decade earlier. But Davis, what he could have been.
Yeah, Bostock’s injuries were somewhat more severe!
Jan 17th, 2008
Charles
Injury shortened career, and more unfortunately, life - Tony Conigliaro
Jan 17th, 2008
Jon Morse
Sarah Jane Morris, Brothers and Sisters.
Portia di Rossi, Arrested Development.
multiple moms/wives already mentioned.
Jan 20th, 2008
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