I’m not going to lie to you here — I hate the Jack Morris Hall of Fame campaign. Hate it. Despise it. Loathe it. And it isn’t just because there are a few people who will put Jack Morris on their ballots but leave off Bert Blyleven, which is so obviously and clearly wrong that it makes my teeth hurt. I know the other day I tried my best to climb into the minds of one of these voters, and I tried to put some logic behind it, but honestly, I failed miserably. To me, this Blyleven or Morris question seems easier than one of those sample questions you would get on those aptitude tests in the third grade.
Hmm, so you’re telling me that Blyleven has 33 more wins, 32 more shutouts, 1,223 more strikeouts, 68 fewer walks, an ERA that more than a half run better, an ERA+ that’s 13 points better, a better overall postseason record and five or six individual seasons that were better than Jack Morris’ best season … wow, can I have a few more minutes to think about this? Wait, Blyleven had a lot more losses too, so that, oh, he played for worse teams, yeah, that might have had something do with that, um, hold on, I need to sharpen my No. 2 pencil and think about this …
No, that’s not the reason I hate the campaign. And it’s not because I hate Jack Morris — I don’t. I kind of liked the guy in that “he’d stick the ball in your butt to get you out” sort of way. Plus he had a cool stache.
No, I hate the campaign for the same reason that comedian Gary Gulman hates Pepperidge Farm cookies. “They’re a good cookie, but they’re so full of themselves with their names, they’re so bombastic, they’re like, ‘Oh, this is the Milano, and this is the Bordeaux, and the Geneva, and the Brussels cookie, and I’m like, ‘Wow, what a world traveler, where did I run into you again? Oh, that’s right. Target.’”
That’s how I feel about a few (not all) of the Morris Hall of Fame people. Just be humble. Don’t get in my face with your, “Jack Morris was the greatest pitcher of his era,” garbage. Hey, if you want to say, “Look, here’s a guy who had some longevity, he threw a lot of innings every year, he pitched one fabulous postseason game, and, hey, he did win 254 games in his career,” I could see the argument. I probably wouldn’t vote for him, no but I could see the argument. It’s sort of the Tommy John argument without the surgery or the Jim Kaat argument without the Gold Gloves. Morris has better winning percentages than those two guys, but also a significantly higher ERA and fewer wins.
Kaat, to me, is an especially interesting comp:
Jim Kaat: 283-237, .544 winning percentage, 4,530 IP, 2,461 Ks, 1083 walks, 107 ERA+, 3 20-win seasons, 16 Gold Gloves.
Jack Morris: 254-186, .577 winning percentage, 3,824 IP, 2,478 Ks, 1390 walks, 105 ERA+, 3 20-win seasons, one dominating World Series performance.
Of course, that’s with Kaat and Morris both hanging on at the end. If you cut them both off after their last good years — when Kaat was 36 and Morris 37 — the numbers are even more similar:
Jim Kaat: 235-187, 3,638 IP, 3.30 ERA, 2151 Ks, 873 walks, 177 runs saved against average, Gold Gloves, etc.
Jack Morris: 237-168, 3,530 IP, 3.73 ERA, 2275 Ks, 1258 walks, 115 runs saved against average, big playoff game, etc.
OK, so if you think Kaat has a Hall of Fame case — and I can see that — then Morris does too. Fine. Make that argument.
Trouble is … no. That’s not what many of the Morris people I have heard from say. No, they want to tell me that Morris was a DOMINATING pitcher. He had this AURA. Look how many Opening Days he started (I mean, come on, what does that mean? The guy was such a mean SOB, nobody was going to tell him he WASN’T starting Opening Day). They will tell you how he was the best pitcher for three World Series teams which might be an interesting point except that he was not, in fact, the best pitcher on ANY of those teams. At least by the numbers. I mean, you be the judge:
1984 Detroit Tigers:
Jack Morris went 19-11, 3.60 ERA, 148 Ks, 87 walks, 109 ERA+.
Dan Petry went 18-8, 3.24 ERA, 144 Ks, 66 walks, 121 ERA+.
1991 Minnesota Twins:
Jack Morris went 18-12, 3.43 ERA, 163 Ks, 92 walks, 124 ERA+
Scott Erickson went 20-8, 3.18 ERA, 108 Ks, 71 walks, 134 ERA+
Kevin Tapani went 16-9, 2.99 ERA, 135 Ks, 40 walks, 143 ERA+
1992 Toronto Blue Jays
Jack Morris went 21-6, 4.04 ERA, 132 Ks, 80 walks. 102 ERA+
Juan Guzman went 16-5, 2.64 ERA, 165 Ks, 72 walks, 156 ERA+
The thing is that (some) people want you to FEEL the Morris case, feel it in your gut, remember how he battled, be touched by his competitive spirit, imagine that he had this mystical ability to give up one run when his team scored two but flop around and give up seven runs when his team scored eight. He definitely did the latter of those two. In 1992, when he won 21 games, the Blue Jays scored six-plus runs for him FIFTEEN TIMES. Compare that with Frank Viola, who went 13-12 that same year with a much better ERA in a tougher-hitting ballpark. The Red Sox scored six-plus runs for Viola seven times. Overall, the Blue Jays averaged an absurd 5.56 runs per game for Morris that year; the Red Sox averaged 3.49 runs for Viola.
In his career, teams scored five or more runs per game for him eight times. Yeah, that will help a pitcher look more like a “gamer” — when his team scores lots of runs for him. Do you know how many times Blyleven had a team give him five runs per game? Twice. And how about this: In 1976, Blyleven went 13-16, his teams averaged 2.66 runs per game.
But OK, hey, people will exaggerate for the players they love … I get that. Play up the Opening Days, the 20-win seasons, the victories, I”m OK with that. But there’s one case for Morris that just sets me off. I hear it 25 times every year as the Hall of Fame voting heats up. You already know what I’m going to say. It is this simple sentence:
Jack Morris won more games in the 1980s than any pitcher in baseball.
You know, I believe Dominos sells more pizza than anybody else in New York. I believe Taco Bell sells more tacos than anybody in Texas. I’ve even been told — no idea if it’s true — that Budweiser is the best-selling beer in Germany.
This much is true: Jack Morris won more games than any pitcher in the 1980s. But what does it mean? Was Jack Morris ever, even for one single year, the best pitcher in baseball in the 1980s?
Let’s take a look, shall we?
* * *
1980: Morris was 16-15, 4.18 ERA, 99 ERA+.
Win Share rank: Tied for 37th best pitcher in baseball with 14 wins shares .
Comment: Steve Carlton’s 24-9, 2.34 ERA was a little bit better. … In the American League, Mike Norris (22-9, 2.53 ERA) probably should have won the Cy Young that went to Steve Stone (who did win 25 games). Morris was not in the discussion.
1981: Morris was 14-7 with a 3.05 ERA, 124 ERA+.
Win Share rank: Tied for 6th best pitcher in baseball with 16 Win Shares.
Comment: Shortened season, of course, and Morris was, at least, among the better pitchers. He finished third in the Cy Young voting behind Rollie Fingers (6-3, 1.04 ERA, 28 saves) and Steve McCatty (identical 14-7 record but had 2.33 ERA, and 150 ERA+). Go to the other league, he certainly wasn’t as good as Fernando (13-7, 2.48 ERA, 135 ERA) or Tom Seaver (14-2, 2.54 ERA, 140 ERA+). You also might prefer Steve Carlton (13-4, 2.42 ERA, 150 ERA+) or Nolan Ryan (11-5, 1.69 ERA, 194 ERA+) or even Bert Blyleven (11-7, 2.88 ERA).
1982: Morris was 17-16 with a 4.06 ERA, 100 ERA+.
Win Share rank: Tied for 37th best pitcher in baseball with 14 Win Shares.
Comment: He was about as average as you could be. Steve Carlton (23-11, 3.10 ERA), Joe Niekro (17-12, 2.47 ERA) and Dave Stieb (17-14, 3.25 ERA) were the best starters in baseball, with Steve Rogers and right behind. Dan Quisenberry was dominant and, yet, sadly, this was the year that Pete Vuckovich somehow won the Cy Young Award.
1983: Morris was 20-13, with a 3.34 ERA, 117 ERA+.
Win Share rank: Tied for 9th best pitcher in baseball with 20 Win Shares.
Comment: Morris’ first 20-win season, and he finished third in the AL Cy Young voting behind LaMarr Hoyt (who, just as sadly, won the Cy Young that year) and Dan Quisenberry (who got screwed for the second straight year). Morris’ numbers were clearly inferior to Rich Dotson’s (22-7, 3.23 ERA, 130 ERA+) and Dave Stieb’s as well (17-12, 3.04 ERA, 142 ERA+), and they were pretty similar to Ron Guidry (21-9, 3.56 ERA) and Scott McGregor (18-7, 3.18 ERA).
1984: Morris was 19-11 with a 3.60 ERA, 109 ERA+.
Win Share rank: Tied for 38th best pitcher in baseball with 14 Win Shares.
Comment: OK, we’re five years into the 1980s, and you could argue pretty convincingly that Morris has not had a single year where he would have even been good enough to be in the best FIVE-MAN ROTATION in baseball. Maybe in the strike-shortened year. Maybe. Dave Stieb (16-8, 2.83 ERA, 145 ERA+) was again better, though the Cy went to Morris’ teammate Willie Hernandez (who to me — this won’t surprise you — was not as good as Quisenberry that year). Amazingly, Morris got as many Cy Young votes as Stieb (hey, he had three more wins!). As mentioned, teammate Dan Petry probably had a better year too.
Worth noting: Bert Blyleven for the first time in his career got five runs per game run support. He went 19-7 with a 2.87 ERA.
1985: Morris was 16-11, with a 3.33 ERA, 122 ERA+.
Win Share rank: Tied for 15th best pitcher in baseball with 19 Win Shares.
Comment: This was the year of Dwight Gooden, who had an amazing 33 Win Shares and just was utterly dominant. Morris quietly had a pretty good year, one of his better ones, despite only getting 16 victories. But he was nowhere near the top, and once again a right-handed pitcher named Bert Blyleven (17-16, 3.11 ERA, 134 ERA+) was markedly better, even as his team did not support him. The Cy Young, incidentally, went to 21-year-old Bret Saberhagen (20-6, 2.87 ERA) who threw 10 innings of one-run ball to personally beat one of Morris’ best outings of the year (9 1/3, 2 runs).
1986: Morris was 21-8, 3.27 ERA, 127 ERA+.
Win Share rank: Tied for 8th best pitcher in baseball with 20 Win Shares.
Comment: This may have been Morris’ best season (though he had more win shares in 1987). In the AL he was miles and miles behind Roger Clemens (24-4, 2.48 ERA), and also behind Teddy Higuera 20-11, 2.79 ERA) and Mike Witt (18-10, 2.84 ERA). Throw in relievers like Mark Eichorn (14-6, 1.72 ERA) and Dave Righetti (8 wins, 45 saves, 2.45 ERA) and … we’re not seven years into the decade and Morris hasn’t had one year where he could even make the slightest claim for being the best pitcher in his own league, much less baseball. But wait, his best Win Shares season is coming up …
1987: Morris was 18-11, 3.38 ERA, 126 ERA+.
Win Share rank: Tied for 6th best pitcher in baseball with career high 21 Win Shares.
Comment: Well, here it is — his best Win Shares season. And … was he the best pitcher in baseball? Well, how about we compare him with other starters in the AL:
Was his season better than Roger Clemens (20-9, 2.97 ERA)? No.
Was his season better than Frank Viola (17-10, 2.90 ERA)? No.
How about Jimmy Key (17-8, 2.76 ERA)? No.
Was it better than Bret Saberhagen (18-10, 3.36 ERA, 136 ERA+)? Tough to argue that.
So that makes him about the fifth best pitcher in the American League in 1987. Maybe.
1988: Morris was 15-13, 3.94 ERA, 98 ERA+.
Win Share rank: Tied for 52nd best pitcher in baseball with 12 Win Shares.
Comment: I don’t think you need a comment here.
1989: Morris was 6-14, 4.86 ERA, 79 ERA+.
Win Share rank: Tied for 133rd in baseball with four Win Shares — tied with Melido Perez.
Comment: Morris looked done at this point. But he did have one more very good season in him (1991, he went 18-12 with a 3.43 ERA and, of course, his famous Game 7) and one more OK season (1992, he won 21 games, led the league, but had a 4.04 ERA, which was barely better than league average — he got a lot of run support and had great bullpen help). If you care, he finished tied for ninth in Win Shares in his very good year, and tied for 35th in his OK year.
So there you have it. In 10 seasons of the Jack Morris decade, Jack Morris was never even close to being the best pitcher. He was probably not in the Top 5 in any single season. He threw enough innings and got enough run support to win more games than anyone — 162-119 overall — but among pitchers with 250 or more starts, his 3.66 ERA was worse than Nolan Ryan (3.14), Fernando Valenzuela (3.19), Bob Welch (3.21), Dave Stieb (3.32), Mike Scott (3.42), Jerry Reuss (3.48), Joe Niekro (3.56), Don Sutton (3.53 — yes, Don Sutton), Rick Rhoden (3.65) and, um, what’s this? Yes, it’s Bert Blyleven (3.64) who actually had a whole other decade of the 1970s when he was better.
And if you want to look at some of the pitchers who either came up after the 1980s began or left before they ended …
John Tudor (104-66, 3.13 ERA) was a better pitcher in the 1980s.
John Candelaria (97-69, 3.50 ERA) was a better pitcher in the 1980s
Ron Darling (87-55, 3.38 ERA) was a better pitcher in the 1980s.
Ron Guidry (111-72, 3.66 ERA) was every bit as good.
Steve Carlton (104-84, 3.48 ERA) was way better before his sad multi-team ending.
And players with even fewer starts:
Dwight Gooden (100-39, 2.64 ERA) was WAY better.
Orel Hershiser (98-64, 2.69 ERA) was WAY better
Roger Clemens (95-45, 3.06 ERA), yeah, better.
I want to be clear about this: Jack Morris has his Hall of Fame case. He has a lot of wins. He has Game 7. He has a few intangibles, if you happen to be one of the people who like intangibles. But let’s keep it real, people. Jack Morris was not the best pitcher in the 1980s or anything close.
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41 Comments, Comment or Ping
Paul
Great stuff, Joe. It was especially entertaining as I read this post right after reading firejoemorgans shredding of Jon Heyman’s Hall of Fame article at SI.com. FJM also took Heyman to task for rank Bert No. 10 among this year’s candidates (Heyman voted for six). I’m guessing this is your response to Heyman as well.
Dec 29th, 2007
John
Great take. Not to change the subject but could you please do the same treatment for Jim Ed Rice. My all time favorite, and hopefully, HOF member this year.
Dec 29th, 2007
PC
Wow, that’s fantastic work. Thanks, Joe. I’m sending this to all my Morris-loving friends.
I think that Morris wouldn’t be nearly the HoF candidate that he is if he didn’t sport the ’stache so stylishly for so long. He just looked like a mean gun-slinger, sort of the Sam Elliott of pitchers. That’s what people remember.
Dec 29th, 2007
Ron
I don’t really care about Morris one way or the other. But I do think Blyleven should be in.
But thanks for bringing Jim Kaat back to the front. I had kind of forgotten about him, but it seem as though he should be looked at as much as the others.
And Quiz should be a lock. That doesn’t even take any effort to think about. If it wasn’t for him racking up his save totals when relievers had previously led the league with 25, or less, none of the other relievers would even be considered. Those who set the standard should be automatic picks.
Dec 29th, 2007
Tom Kosmicki
Thank you. One game doth not a Hall of Fame career make. If Bert isn’t in, well, there are very few pitchers left that deserve to be in.
Dec 29th, 2007
ursus arctos
Budweiser isn’t close to being the top selling beer in Germany (Krombacher and Warsteiner tend to trade that distinction in a highly fragmented and regionalized market). It isn’t even in the top ten imports according the most recent statistics on the internet, which are as of 2004, and are available at http://www.xs4all.nl/~patto1ro/gerstats.htm. In fact, “real” Budweiser (the one from Budvar in the Czech Republic) is significantly more popular, as it should be.
And Blyleven should be in.
Dec 29th, 2007
Paul White
Yeah, what Joe said.
(Among others: http://theeverymanblog.wordpress.com/2007/12/12/hall-of-fame-season/)
Dec 29th, 2007
Justyo
Um…Joaldo? As a humble yet consistent Jack Morris fan I have been swayed. (Paul’s cool blog furthered the notion as well) If it’s not too late I’d like to retract my Jack Morris vote for the Poscars. I’d like to write-in Melido Perez in his stead.
And as an aside why was it my Blyleven cards always went into the scrub pile and Morris made it into the “might be worth something someday” pile? Perhaps all that run support over the years and that “aura” kept Morris in the media. It’s hard overcoming those early pile designations.
JY
Dec 29th, 2007
maiuchuck
For me neither should be in the HoF, but then again I think the HoF is over populated with good players with long careers and not enough guys who dominated for a short time. Being an Indians fan I saw Blyleven pitch for three years and, truth be told, he was an OK pitcher on a mediocre team. Kinda the story of his life.
For me if there was ever one player from that whole sorry collection of misfits that wore the Indians uniform of the 60s, 70s, 80s and early 90s it’s Sam McDowell. That was one guy who could just blow the hitters away. A 1.81 ERA in ‘68 and still went 15 and 14 - are you kiddin’ me? 325 Ks at age 22 - Sam could flat bring it. Bert and Jack? - not so much.
Course Sam was a drunk and spectacularly flamed out at age 28 after being traded to the Giants for Gaylord Perry. But for the 6 or so years Sam had it he was the best. Blyleven and Morris? Just not enough sizzle from either of those guys for me.
Dec 29th, 2007
Jesus Melendez
Interesting stats about Morris. Out of curiosity (and yes, I am going WAY out on a limb here)…what were Nolan Ryan’s numbers when it comes to win shares? Outside of the presence, the Ks and the no-hitters…you have a guy who is not much better than a .500 pitcher.
I’ve written about Morris (and other potential Hall of Famers) over at my blog…http://hallofverygood.blogspot.com. Check it out!
Dec 30th, 2007
Snuckles
I’d love to “check out” your no doubt fascinating blog, Jesus, but right now I’m too busy sending $1 to each of the six Paypal accounts on the list, and then adding my name and posting the updated list on 200 or more message boards. I should receive $27,000 by next week at the latest, because a guy who used to be skeptical like me says it really works, and it’s NOT a pyramid scheme!
So, sorry about the blog. But if you ever post your photo on HotOrNot.com, do let us know!
Dec 30th, 2007
Jesus Melendez
Sorry Snuckles…why would I EVER think that someone who would come to a blog about the “best pitcher of the 1980s” would ever want to read more on the subject.
I hate to burst your bubble…but I only found this place through a link on a different site. Hmmm…kinda like how I posted a link to MY site here. AMAZING how the internet and word of mouth works.
Enjoy your cleverness!
Dec 30th, 2007
Mike Bagnall
Interesting article, but still, there are other reasons than win shares and such for HOF votes. If you ask 1000 random fans who was the better pitcher, I suspect more would vote for Morris than Blyleven, or even, sadly for Quisenberry. The HOF was never intended, by those who invented the idea, as a resting place for those who rank highest on the Bill James list of favorites, no matter how convincing the pseudomathmatical reasoning. I agree he probably wasn’t as GOOD as either of those guys, but he was better known and probably more widely appreciated by fans at the time, and that’s what the HOF is for. Guys who had the biggest IMPACT on the game are the ones who should be in the hall, not those who played it best. Often, they are the same ones, but often they aren’t. And it isn’t supposed to be the MOST KNOWLEDGABLE (sabermetrically) folks who get to vote, but those who most closely represent the feelings of the fans. When baseball writers were set up to be the voters, it wasn’t because anyone thought they knew anything about baseball…..
Dec 31st, 2007
Snowman
Okay, Bagnall, I’ll play…
I guess by that logic, Jose Canseco should be a lock. No one has impacted the last 20 years of baseball as much as he did.
Dec 31st, 2007
D.B. Cooper
Indeed. “Better known and widely appreciated by the fans at the time…”
Darryl Strawberry, Don Mattingly, and Dwight Gooden, come on down! Steve Garvey, Jim Rice, and who else - Rob Dibble?
And I beg you to find a single BBWAA voter who’ll admit to being less-than-knowledgeable about HOF candidacy.
Dec 31st, 2007
Jacob
I’ll say this for the Bagnalls out there: JAck Morris kind of sucked. I grew up watching baseball in the 80s. Played wiffleball/Atari/Nintendo/Stratomatic baseball. Worshipped the players as if they were gods. And had a ton of friends who did too. None of us ever, and I mean ever thought Jack Morris was worth a damn. I simply don’t get this argument. But, then again, I don’t get the utter dismissal of Dave Stieb either., How many times did Stieb get to the 9th with a no-hitter intact…? It seems like it happened to him all the time. He was awesome. And we loved him. And we loved Clemens, Gooden, Saberhagen on the odd years, Smoke Stewart, Bob Welch, Morel Orel, Ron Darling, Dave Cone, Jimmy Key, I mean I could go on for a while. Fact is, Jack Morris is a tick above average, and his teams scored a ton of runs for him, which somehow in the dimly-lit reptile brains of those folks who are swayed by a mustache and some “guts” means he “knew how to win.” Why aren’t these folks lobbying for “Shooter” Beck…? Better mustache. Better “guts.”
Dec 31st, 2007
Snuckles
[i]Sorry Snuckles…why would I EVER think that someone who would come to a blog about the “best pitcher of the 1980s” would ever want to read more on the subject.[/i]
Because you think (or claim to think) that Jeff Reardon was more valuable than Tim Raines? Because you think (or claim to think) that Robb Nen was superior to Rich Gossage? Because “contrary” is the easiest stunt to do online, but “smart” is a skill?
[i]I hate to burst your bubble…but I only found this place through a link on a different site. Hmmm…kinda like how I posted a link to MY site here. AMAZING how the internet and word of mouth works.[/i]
You mean the site where everyone laughs at your conclusions? There’s nothing so AMAZING about that.
Seriously, be a little classier. You ask a question that anyone can Google, and then it’s right to the self-plug. Sure looks like the comment was just the excuse to post an ad. Good luck getting more “hits.”
Dec 31st, 2007
Jesus Melendez
“Because you think (or claim to think) that Jeff Reardon was more valuable than Tim Raines?”
I see you’ve ventured over from the “Think Factory”…nice work. Actually, what I said was that for five years there, Raines might not have even been one of the top three most valuable Expos when you consider he, Dawson, Carter, Reardon and Rogers all shared the same field. By would I have expected you to actually pay attention to what was written though? By the way…I wasn’t the ONLY person who came to that conclusion either.
“Because you think (or claim to think) that Robb Nen was superior to Rich Gossage? Because “contrary” is the easiest stunt to do online, but “smart” is a skill?”
Oh…so you’ve visited the Hall of Very Good. Nice job…and welcome! Yes, Robb Nen (and Lee Smith) were also mentioned by me as being possibly the “best reliever” on this year’s ballot for the Hall of Fame. Thanks for playing!
“You mean the site where everyone laughs at your conclusions? There’s nothing so AMAZING about that.”
You’ve visted and it’s started discussions. In your case, it’s helped to prolong this one. I guess it’s kinda doing its job. And for the record…I don’t think I would ever use the word “amazing” to categorize someone posting their thoughts on a particular subject.
“Seriously, be a little classier. You ask a question that anyone can Google, and then it’s right to the self-plug. Sure looks like the comment was just the excuse to post an ad. Good luck getting more “hits.”
For the record, when you Google what I asked it sends you to Joe’s response to my question. And yes, when there is a blog that is similar in nature to something I have written, I will post a link to it (much like what Paul did previously). It is FAR better than posting my entire thing here OR leaving some drivel about a pyramid scheme.
Dec 31st, 2007
Schooner
As a die hard Jays fan I watched plenty of Dave Stieb in the 80s and he always seemed like a bit of a jerk. He also would have gotten the ball over pretty much any AL pitcher including Morris for most of the 80s. And he got less than 2%. Morris in the HOF is a joke.
Dec 31st, 2007
Paul White
“…And yes, when there is a blog that is similar in nature to something I have written, I will post a link to it (much like what Paul did previously).”
Whoa there big fella. Please don’t associate me with your posting habits here. I have posted the grand total of ONE link to something I wrote because it made a similar point to the one Joe was making. That’s it. It was an honest attempt to add to the discussion, not some cheesy, exclamation point-laden, infomercial-esque attempt to drum up hits for my blog. Kindly draw your comparisons by other means.
Jan 1st, 2008
Snowman
Oh, c’mon, Mr. White… quit beating around the bush and tell us how you really feel.
Jan 2nd, 2008
Dan
Joe,
I hope you caught John’s suggestion that you do a similar workup of Jim Rice’s stats. I don’t have the list handy but as I posted on the old blog, over a 12 year period, Rice led the AL in 12 different offensive categories (iirc). Its got clear parallels to the “Morris won more in the 80s” claim. I think it would be very interesting to see a breakdown of each of his ‘75-’86 seasons, as well as a list of hitters in both the ’70s and ’80s who compare favorably.
I know you’re a busy guy, Joe, but please try to get to this before the HoF makes its announcement!
Jan 2nd, 2008
Jesus Melendez
“I have posted the grand total of ONE link to something I wrote because it made a similar point to the one Joe was making.”
As did I.
“It was an honest attempt to add to the discussion, not some cheesy, exclamation point-laden, infomercial-esque attempt to drum up hits for my blog. Kindly draw your comparisons by other means.”
Honest attempt…really?!? You added NOTHING but a “Yeah, what Joe said. ” Nice job. I posed a question (which was answered, therefore PROLONGING the discussion) and added a link to my blog to further discussion.
As far as an “exclamation point-laden” atttempt…I used one. And for the record…I’ve yet seen you post anything here to “add” to the discussion other than a link. So, nice try…but I ain’t buyin’ it.
And Joe…let me be the first man among boys here to apologize for what this blog has become. I’m not sure why people feel compelled to lash out.
Jan 2nd, 2008
Snuckles
Mostly because your “Look at me, look at me” shtick is obnoxious to most, and would embarrass any actual man among boys. Your saddened-but-determined-to-persevere air is less than persuasive.
And partly it’s because “My comments spark debate!” is the automatic refuge of the online attention sponge. (”Aha, you checked out my site, thanks for the hit” is another hoary comeback cliche.)
As you mature, you’ll very probably realize that provoking reaction is not, in fact, its own reward. Good sites don’t need to be pimped.
Jan 2nd, 2008
Jesus Melendez
Riddle me this Snuckles, if you are so sick of my “schtick”…why do you follow me around the web? You’d added nothing to this thread but criticism of me.
Props for correctly using “hoary” however.
Jan 2nd, 2008
Paul White
Thank you for getting your opinion on the record, Jesus. I will give it all the consideration it deserves.
Here’s some unsolicited, and surely unwanted, advice. You’ve got a comment pimping your site in this post. You’ve got another in the next. The BTF site is lousy with your cut and pasted “check it out!” schlock. Just give it a rest. There’s a reason people don’t use the term “used car salesman” as a compliment.
I will now return to ignoring you, unless you decide to cite my name again in one of your comments.
Jan 2nd, 2008
Chipmaker
The hoary “Morris had the most wins in the 1980s” makes my teeth hurt too, because while it is an accurate factoid it really doesn’t mean anything. Calendar decades in baseball are coincidental. The Morris supporters are long overdue to change their campaigning tack, but they cannot because they’ve got little else; and by now it is obvious that the “decade” slogan is NOT working, not helping Morris’ candidacy.
The thing the supporters miss, and really they are incapable of seeing it, is that by reaching for the “most wins in the decade” factoid and using it AS THE HEADLINE for their Morris campaign, they’ve already lost the argument.
I wouldn’t vote for Morris. I look for great seasons before anything else, and Morris didn’t have any.
Jan 2nd, 2008
Jesus Melendez
“I wouldn’t vote for Morris. I look for great seasons before anything else, and Morris didn’t have any.”
Nor did Blyleven if you want to go that route, yet people are pimping his inclusion left and right. I hate to say it (and I am not saying it is right), but the Hall voters DO look at goofy stuff ilke “most XX during XX decade”…it looks far better on the plaque than “ERA+ or XXX in 19XX”.
Jan 2nd, 2008
Dave
That article was a nice trip down memory lane. Thanks, from an A’s fan. I’m not a Jack Morris fan but if you are trying to determine the best pitcher of the 80’s shouldn’t you compare the best 10-year records, ERAs etc for pitchers having pitched for all ten years? In other words, the best average performance over ten years. Guys that do really well for a season or two don’t even show up.
Just a thought.
Thanks,
Dave
Jan 2nd, 2008
B.S.
I have always been a “Morris for the HoF” guy. Mostly because I grew up in suburban Detroit and have been “self-induced blind” to the stats. Obviously, the stats do not bode well for Morris. However, in my mind, he passes the sniff test. I can tell you that when Jack Morris was pitching, you watched. You bought tickets based on who was pitching that game. If my father came home with 4 tix, the first thing you did was run down the pitching order in your head and figure out who was throwing that night If it was Morris, the excitement leading up to the game was on par with trying to get to sleep the night before Christmas. The same cannot be said for Milt Wilcox or Dave Rozeman or Dan Petry or Aurelio Rodriguez. We were ecstatic to be at any Tigers game, but if it was a Morris game…that was extra-special.
But those are my memories. I haven’t heard from the 35 year old guy that would high-five his brothers when his parents got them tickets to the Bert Blyleven game, or from the 50 yr old that would flip-out when told that he was going to see Jim Kaat. Maybe they’re out there…maybe not. Should that reflect when HoF ballots come around? I don’t know…possibly. I do know that something should be said about the fact there is a large group of Morris fans out there that want to see Morris in the HoF. He must’ve done something right to leave such an impression. Could the same be said for Steib, Kaat, or Blyleven?
Jan 2nd, 2008
Mr. Leisure
Great article, but I think the “wasn’t even the best pitcher on his team” is a bit of a stretch.
1984 Detroit Tigers:
Jack Morris went 19-11, 3.60 ERA, 148 Ks, 87 walks, 109 ERA+.
Dan Petry went 18-8, 3.24 ERA, 144 Ks, 66 walks, 121 ERA+.
1991 Minnesota Twins:
Jack Morris went 18-12, 3.43 ERA, 163 Ks, 92 walks, 124 ERA+
Scott Erickson went 20-8, 3.18 ERA, 108 Ks, 71 walks, 134 ERA+
Kevin Tapani went 16-9, 2.99 ERA, 135 Ks, 40 walks, 143 ERA+
1992 Toronto Blue Jays
Jack Morris went 21-6, 4.04 ERA, 132 Ks, 80 walks. 102 ERA+
Juan Guzman went 16-5, 2.64 ERA, 165 Ks, 72 walks, 156 ERA+
All those stats, in 2008, are great. However, who was going to get the ball if Sparky Anderson, Tom Kelly, and Cito Gaston needed to win one game? Dan Petry? That’s the problem with only using stats for your analysis - it works great if you want to fire up the PC jr. for some MicroLeague Baseball, but it never worked in the real world.
I’m not pro-Morris by any means, but I think those three managers had a pretty good idea who their best pitcher was. After all, they all three won the World Series.
Jan 2nd, 2008
Sarah Green
Let’s not forget, Jim “Kitty” Kaat had one of the all-time best nicknames in baseball, if not all of sport. Alas, even with a few style points for that, he’s not good enough for Cooperstown.
Jan 2nd, 2008
Mark
Hey B.S., in your excitement, you confused Aurelio RODRIGUEZ with Aurelio LOPEZ. I’m sure Senor Smoke will forgive you….
Jan 2nd, 2008
Mike Bagnall
Connie Mack was quoted as saying of all the pitchers he had in his time if he had one game to win he’d want Chief Bender to pitch it. Considering the other guys he managed, that’s quite a complement. He didn’t mention any stats in his comment, though, so I guess he was only kidding. As a Tiger fan, I always thought Aurelio Lopez was the best pitcher the Tigers had in 1984, but Sparky didn’t. I’ve always appreciated the “here it comes, hit it if you can” style of pitching. They said NOBODY could throw a fastball past Howard Johnson. I’d love to have seen him hit against Senor Smoke.
Jan 2nd, 2008
Coley
First of all, I absolutely agree with Joe’s argument. But I also liked what a friend of mine said about Morris: “If the Hall of Fame is all about stats (which it is clearly not), then he could be kept out, but if it is about fame and glory, there has to be a place for Jack Morris.”
I think that if we stick with the standards we’ve always used when judging hall of fame candidates, then Morris sneaks in. But if we go with our more modern stats (ERA+, win shares, etc.) then he’s not even close. Of course it makes sense to use modern stats to judge the current crop of HOF candidates. Stats like win shares and ERA+ are better measurements of a player’s ability. That’s why we invented them! But by the same token, it’s not really fare to Morris, who no doubt will be sitting at home wondering how Bruce Sutter got in and he didn’t.
I think if anybody out there is following Morris’ candidacy, it’s Curt Schilling. Schilling is the Morris of our generation: a consistently good pitcher who never won a Cy Young and whose big-game performances have enhanced his legend. Schilling, incidentally, has 242 win shares — 17 more than Morris. But Morris has one thing Schilling doesn’t: a no-hitter.
Jan 2nd, 2008
SEJ-3D
Great article Joe. I’m coming around to the idea that Morris isn’t a HOFer. I grew up in Morris’ heyday. I collected his baseball cards and although I’m not a Tigers fan I can definitely understand what B.S. wrote about those Tiger staffs. And I’d agree with what Mr. Leisure said about those world champion staffs. Others might’ve had better stats, but those managers were counting on Morris’ “give me the ball” attitude when it came being the staff ace. And it worked.
I was pro Morris and pro Blyleven, but after all of the articles I’ve read in teh past few weeks I’m now just pro Blyleven.
Jan 2nd, 2008
Adam
Mark Grace had more hits than anyone in the 1990s.
Jan 2nd, 2008
B.S.
I also added an N to Dave Rozema. I don’t post often…and it shows.
Jan 2nd, 2008
Bill
Wow, this was a very thorough article and gave me some things to think about. I have two friends that played with him on the Tiger’s ‘84 team and the rest of his time in Detroit.
Both of them told me that they were glad he played for the Tiger’s, because they would never want to face him.
In big games he always came through. Am I saying his the greatest pitcher ever? No I am not.
But, he had 254 Wins, 3 WS rings and won when it counted. We are not talking about a Terrell Davis who played 4 years, one on IR and out.
Jan 8th, 2008
Gold
A well-researched article and Joe Pos is usually pretty sharp.
However, I recall a writer describing his qualifications for the Hall of Fame, and he said it was like Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart’s comment on pornography - he knew it when he saw it.
The fact is, during the 1980s, Jack Morris was the pitcher you would want on the mound if it was a big game. You can present good numbers to show that Clemens would have had a better season in 1987. But if you asked major league managers who they would want on the mound in a big game, my guess is Jack Morris would get more votes than anybody else during the 1980s.
OK, in 1992 he got a ton of support and had an ERA over 4. But he still won 21 games and that is the point - he would manage to win and he would go deep into games.
Joe, you pick Nolan Ryan and I’ll pick Jack Morris. I’ll feel real good about my chances.
Jan 9th, 2008
Mike
Here’s an interesting Morris-Blyleven comparison:
Courtesy of baseball reference, here are Morris’s *career* highs combined to a theoretical single best year:
21-8, 293 2/3 IP, 20 CG, 6 SHO, 232 K, 3.05 ERA 133 ERA+
So if you combined the best years of Morris’s career into one uber year, he was 21-8, 3.05, 33 percent better than the rest of the league.
Bert Blyleven had *ten years* in his career that were as good or better, except in the W-L column. Innings pitches, ERA, ERA+, strikeouts, whatever you want. There were ten years were Bert Blyleven was a better pitcher than Jack Morris on the best theoretical year of his life.
Jan 9th, 2008
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