The Hall of Comps
Posted: December 21st, 2007 | Filed under: Baseball | 20 Comments »
The Hall of Comp Game is fun. It really is. It is amazing how, with a little imagination, research and dishonesty you can make a Hall of Fame case for anybody.
Take my hero Duane Kuiper. Everyone knows I love the Kuip — heck he’s in the tagline on this blog. So you might throw out a challenge: “OK, Joaldo, let’s see you make a Hall of Fame case for Kuiper, a guy who hit one homer in his entire career, had the second worst stolen-base percentage in baseball history (52 steals, 71 caught) and never quite played in an All-Star Game.†You want it? Here it is. Come and get it.
Duane Kuiper hit .271 which is ELEVEN POINTS better than Hall of Famer Bill Mazeroski. I mean that’s ridiculous. That’s not even close. He hit an even more amazing THIRTEEN POINTS better than Rabbit Marranville. These guys are in the Hall of Fame ahead of Kuiper? Who the heck is voting here?
Who is the greatest second baseman of all time? Joe Morgan, right? Come a little closer to the screen. OK, I’ll let you in on something: Duane Kuiper and Joe Morgan had the SAME LIFETIME BATTING AVERAGE. Yep. They both hit .271. And yet, everyone’s going on and on about how good Morgan was.
Or maybe you want to go for the advanced metrics than batting average, you know those really wacky stats like on-base percentage. Well fine. Kuip had a .325 on-base percentage which was way better than Hall of Famers Joe Tinker (.308) or Luis Aparicio (.311). His lifetime OPS was WAY better than Bill McKechnie or Leo Durocher.
Or even more advanced? I may not know what OPS+ means, but the guy had a 228 OPS+ his first year in the big leagues. Hello? That happens to be a higher OPS+ than Babe Ruth’s oh-so-famous 1927 season.
Fielding you say? That’s my man Kuiper’s specialty. Well, who is the best fielder ever, right? Exactly, Brooks Robinson, right? Duane Kuiper’s fielding percentage of .983 kicked the hose out of the Human Vacuum Cleaner, who had only a .971 fielding percentage. It’s laughable. Kuiper’s fielding percentage is better than Ozzie Smith’s (.978). It’s WAY better than Pee Wee Reese (.962) or Phil Ruzzutto (.968). These guys are in the Hall of Fame for their defense and they left Kuiper out? Joke!
He had more hits than Bob Gibson — and all anyone did was brag about Gibby’s hitting — more homers than Lefty Gomez, more RBIs than Branch Rickey, Dizzy Dean and Sandy Koufax put together, more runs scored than Branch Rickey. These are some of the all-time greats, people. Oh, I could keep going. More stolen bases than Cal Ripken, Wade Boggs or (this will blow you away) Ted Williams. That’s right. The great Splendid Splinter!
He grounded into about one-fourth the double plays that Hank Aaron hit into. He struck out almost 700 fewer times than George Brett, who everyone wants to keep calling a “pure hitter.†Duano was feared too — his 27 intentional walks are more than Larry Doby. Basically it’s an absolute joke that my man is not in the Hall.
You know, about one-third of the way through that, I really started getting into this. Duane’s gonna be on the next Pozcars ballot. The injustice must stop somewhere.
Anyway, I think the original point of this post was this: It’s Hall of Fame voting time which means that every day I get several emails from various lobbying groups pushing the case for their player. I’m OK with this, and some of these lobbyists make good points, some make bad points but at least they’re somewhat sane, some make ridiculous points that are at least kind of funny and some need to have their calculators taken away from them because Pythagoras will never have heavenly peace until it is done.
So, here’s what I’ve done for those of you interested in making a Hall of Fame case for your favorite player. I’ve taken some pretty shaky Hall of Famers, one at each position, listed their most appropriate Baseball Reference comp, and named someone else whose statistics absolutely blow theirs away. I hope this might accomplish two things: 1. Give you Bo Diaz, George Hendrick and Kevin Seitzer fans some comps to use in your next argument; 2. Get people to realize that there are some very mediocre choices in the Hall of Fame — it ain’t all Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle.
By the way: Kuiper had more than five times more sacrifice hits than Mantle and a better strikeout-to-walk ratio than Mays. Free Duane Kuiper!
Third Base
Hall of Famer: George Kell (.306/.367/.414, 2054 hits, 78 homers, 111 OPS+, .258 Big Average)
No. 1 Comp: Harvey Kuenn (.303/.357/.408, 2092 hits, 87 homers, 108 OPS+, .246 Big Average)
Not in: Ron Santo (.277/.362/.464, 2254 hits, 342 homers, 125 OPS+, .303 Big Average)
Comment: George Kell is one of the more popular Hall of Fame comps for people trying to make their case. He was a good player, but he wasn’t an especially productive hitter, despite hit .306 lifetime average and his batting title. It seems when you look at it in context that several third basemen — including blog favorite Bill Madlock — were better hitters. Kell was a good fielder, a solid teammate, a respected man, a 10-time All-Star, and he was inducted into the Hall by the veteran’s committee, which is no longer in existence. He also went in in 1983, when the list of third basemen in the Hall of Fame was hardly overwhelming — it was before George Brett, Mike Schmidt, Wade Boggs and the same year as Brooks Robinson.
So making any Kell comparisons now is probably pointless and borderline deceitful. But what’s a little deceit when making Hall of Fame arguments …
As an aside, Ron Santo was clearly and obviously a better player.
Shortstop
Hall of Famer: Joe Tinker (.262/.308/.353, 1687 hits, 336 SBs, 95 OPS+)
No. 1 Comp: Ozzie Guillen (.264/.287/.338, 1764 hits, 169 SBs, 68 OPS+)
Not in: Vern Stephens (.286/.355/.460, 1859 hits, 247 HR, 119 OPS+, .302 Big Average)
Comment: The Guillen comp doesn’t really stand up — check out those OPS+ — but Tinker is obviously a great Hall comp for anyone trying to make a case for their favorite shortstop. This is a good place to point out that Vern Stephens was one heck of a hitter.
Second base
Hall of Famer: Bill Mazeroski (.260/.299/.377, 2016 hits, 138 homers, 84 OPS+, 8 Gold Gloves)
No. 1 Comp: Frank White (.255/.293/.383, 2006 hits, 160 homers, 85 OPS+, 8 Gold Gloves)
Not in: Bob Grich (.266/.371/.424, 1833 hits, 224 homers, 125 OPS+, 4 Gold Gloves, .290 Big Average)
Comment: When Maz got in, it made my friend Frank White feel like maybe people would take another look at his fine career. It’s hard in baseball history to find two players who are more similar in obvious ways. They were two great fielding second baseman — best of their generations — who played big roles on championship teams and put up almost identical offensive numbers over careers that lasted almost exactly the same amount of time.
I mean, sure, people can split hairs and say Maz turned the double play better but Frank ran better but Maz hit the big World Series home run but Frank hit cleanup in the World Series and won the first ALCS MVP but Maz … it seems silly to me. They are just so darned similar, why can’t people just embrace it. Eerily similar. Putting Maz in but not White like putting in Mary Kate but not Ashley.
Of course, it is once again not a fair comparison. After the veteran’s committee voted Maz in, they slammed the door behind him — the committee was disbanded immediately (and probably BECAUSE they voted in Maz). So there’s no real Hall of Fame door open for Frank, which is a shame because he was summarily dismissed by the voters and that wasn’t right. Frank was an amazing second baseman who invented a new way to play on turf — nobody played deeper. He would run down foul balls hit two-thirds of the way into the outfield.
Grich was a hell of a lot better hitter than either one of them — and he was an outstanding second baseman himself.
First base
Hall of Famer: George Kelly (.297/.342/.452, 1778 hits, 148 homers, 109 OPS+, .278 Big Average)
No. 1 Comp: Bob Watson (.295/.364/.447, 1826 hits, 184 homers, 129 OPS+, .282 Big Average)
Not in: Will Clark (.303/.384/.497, 2176 hits, 284 homers, 137 OPS+, .323 Big Average)
Comment: Another false B-R comp — Watson was a hell of a lot better hitter than George Kelly. Will Clark inspires the question: How long does someone have to be a “GREAT†player in order to be a Hall of Famer? If someone is a great player, as Clark was, for most of his 15 seasons, but can’t stay healthy long enough to get to the 3000 hit or 400 homer region, does that disqualify him from being in the Hall of Fame. The answer, based on Clark’s 23 Hall of Fame votes, is unequivocally, yes.
But Kirby Puckett is in …
Left Field
Hall of Famer: Lou Brock (.293/.343/.410, 3023 hits, 938 SBs, 109 OPS+, .273 Big Average)
No. 1 Comp: Tim Raines (.294/.385/.425, 2605 hits, 808 SBs, 123 OPS+, .318 Big Average)
Not in: Indian Bob Johnson (.296/.393/.506, 2051 hits, 288 HRs, 138 OPS+, .346 Big Average)
Comment: Here it is again. Bob Johnson put up spectacular numbers — but not for quite long enough.
Raines, as mentioned in numerous places here, was a better player than Brock. Got on base A LOT more. Stole bases more efficiently. Hit with more power. Brock though was trailblazer. Be interesting to see what the voters think on Raines this year.
Center Field
Hall of Famer: Kirby Puckett (.318/.360/.477, 2304 hits, 207 homers, 124 OPS+, .285 Big Average)
No. 1 Comp: Don Mattingly (.307/.358/.471, 2153 hits, 222 homers, 127 OPS+, .286 Big Average)
Not in: Fred Lynn (.283/.360/.484, 1960 hits, 306 homers, 129 OPS+, .311 Big Average)
Comment: So here’s the deal when you vote in Kirby Puckett first ballot … you open the door of comp to every single player who had a good career, got hurt and finished their career prematurely. Right now, this is the BIG Mattingly argument — “Hey, if Puckett’s in, how can you leave out Mattingly — they had almost identical numbers†— but, hey, I would contend that offensively Fred Lynn had better overall numbers than either one of those guys.
No, Lynn doesn’t have quite the number of hits as Puckett, but his on-base percentage is the same, he slugged better, his OPS+ is significantly better and he hit 99 more home runs. Lynn was a brilliant defensive center fielder who had his career cut short, in large part, because he played the game hard (though he was also criticized for not being tough by some). He also won an MVP award and Rookie of the Year, same year, and he hit .611 in that 1982 ALCS.
Where’s the Fred Lynn Hall of Fame lobby?
Right Field
Hall of Famer: Enos Slaughter (.300/.382/.453, 2383 hits, 169 homers, 123 OPS+, .304 Big Average)
No. 1 Comp: Mickey Vernon (.286/.359/.428, 2495 hits, 172 homers, 116 OPS+, .280 Big Average)
Not in: Minnie Minoso (.289/.389/.459, 1963 hits, 186 homers, 205 SBs, .314 Big Average)
Comment: I think Minoso should be in.
Catcher
Hall of Famer: Ray Schalk (.253/.340/.316, 1345 hits, 177 SBs, 83 OPS+)
Catcher Comp: JIm Sundberg (.248/.327/.348, 1493 hits, 95 homers, 89 OPS+)
Not in: Ted Simmons (.285/.348/.437, 2472 hits, 248 homers, 117 OPS+, .273 Big Average)
Not in: Bill Freehan (.262/.340/.412, 1591 hits, 200 homers, 112 OPS+)
Comment: Ray Schalk is a great comparison for any Hall of Fame catcher you would like to use.
Pitcher
Hall of Famer: Catfish Hunter (224-166, 3.26 ERA, 2012 Ks, 954 walks, 104 ERA+)
No. 1 Comp: Luis Tiant (229-172, 3.30 ERA, 2416 Ks, 1104 walks, 114 ERA+)
Not in: Bert Blyleven (287-250, 3.31 ERA, 3701 Ks, 1322 walks, 118 ERA+)
Not gonna get in: Kevin Brown (211-140, 3.28 ERA, 2397 Ks, 901 walks, 127 ERA+)
Nor: David Cone (194-126, 3.46 ERA, 2668 Ks, 1137 walks, 120 ERA+).
Comment: Bill James has a theory about why Hunter got in and Tiant did not — and it did not have to do with Hunter playing on better teams or being well liked or American or whatever. Hunter was eligible BEFORE the historic sweep of 300-game winners and other slam-dunk Hall of Fames — Gaylord Perry, Jim Palmer, Fergie Jenkins, Tom Seaver, Don Sutton, Phil Niekro, Steve Carlton. Once all those guys got in, the STANDARDS of what a Hall of Fame pitcher had to be had changed. Catfish got in just under the bell.
The theory is excellent — I mean, the guy’s Bill James — but another look does seem to show that interest in Tiant seemed to be fading BEFORE those guys started getting in. Tiant’s first year, he got 30.9 percent of the vote, a good first showing. But his second year — when only Perry among those players was on the ballot — he dropped to barely more than 10 percent. Maybe voters were looking ahead and realizing that Tiant would not stack up to the wave of pitchers on the horizon. Hard to say — that sort of Hall of Fame drop is unique. Tiant was, in my opinion, a better pitcher than Catfish.
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If I could change one thing about sports, it might very well be to put Frank White into the Hall of Fame and give him the recognition he so deeply deserves. I maintain that if he played in New York or Boston, he would at least still be on the ballot, and possibly have a Mattingly/Rice-esque fierce battalion of support.
By the way, Harold Reynolds owes Frank at least one GG. In 1988, HR won the GG, with 18 errors and a .977 fielding percentage to Frank’s FOUR errors (which I believe were all throwing) and .994 FP. Give Frank that GG, which he deserved, and maybe one more (which he may not have), and he would have 10, which would have looked much, much better on a HoF resume. Yes, I’m still bitter.
So, what’s the story with Vern Stephens? This guy goes way back before my memory, and I don’t pretend to know much about the more marginal players before around ‘87 or so, when I got into the sport, and wanted to know all the players. But Stephens sure as hell doesn’t look like a marginal player. My god, his ‘49 season was breathtaking, and at SS! Looks like his career was derailed due to injury. But unless he was an absolute Jeter at shortstop, or hacked his kids to bits, I just don’t get it. Everyone talks about how Ernie Banks revolutionized the position, and he certainly seems to have done just that. But, Stephens deserves to at least be in that discussion. To my eyes, according to the stats, he deserves to be in the HOF. And for the weak-minded folks out there who ain’t so good at looking at a stat sheet, he made 8 All-Star teams, finished in the top 5 in MVP voting 3 times, and what a peak! From ‘48-’50, he was a god. Then he had a shortened season in ‘51, and then four years of middling play, and he was done. But this is all from the stat sheet. What’s the story here, Joe…? I understand the push for Blyleven for HOF, because his numbers are deserving. But, why aren’t folks more passionate about players like Stephens & Ted Simmons…?
I’d also like to add one other thing: Will Clark was better than Mattingly. Period. Aside from all the NY fanboys “Yank”-ing each other, any sensible person can see that.
My case for comping Omar Vizquel vs. the Wizard of Oz…….
Ozzie Smith Batting – 9396 AB / 1257 R / 2460 H / .262 BA / .337 OBP / .328 SLG / .236 Big Average
Omar Vizquel Batting – 9479 AB / 1337 R / 2598 H / .274 BA / .340 OBP / .357 SLG / .238 Big Average
Smith Fielding – 2511 G / 4249 PO / 8375 A / 281 E / 1590 DP / .978 FP
Vizquel Fielding – 2572 G / 3931 PO / 7370 A / 181 E / 1655 DP / .984 FP
The one caveat that should be made on the Puckett to Mattingly comp is a reminder that Mattingly played 1B, while Puckett played CF… the offensive standards are significantly different for those two positions… which makes the Mattingly comp look exceedingly weak.
Enos Slaughter isn’t the best example for RF because he missed 3 seasons in WWII, so his numbers are presumably lower than they would be if he had a normal career. You could have used Tommy McCarthy or Ross Youngs instead.
Among CF, I’d go with Jimmy Wynn before Fred Lynn, but you’re going to get to that anyway.
The Mattinlgy-Puckett comparison is weak, but was Puckett really known for his defense? I’m not saying he was bad, and obviously a CF has more value than a 1B, but it wasn’t what he was known for.
Perhaps this the evil sin committed by Vern Stephens: Mar 30, 1946 – A holdout from the Browns‚ SS Vern Stephens signs a 5-year deal with the Pasquel brothers to play in Mexico. The Giants dismiss Roy Zimmerman‚ George Hausmann‚ and P Sal Maglie for dickering with the Pasquels‚ and the trio departs for Mexico. One day later Mickey Owen of the Dodgers signs to manage the Mexican club in Torreón. Stephens will play a couple of games in Mexico‚ then jump back. Owen announces he will return and then changes his mind again. Seems that Stephens came back “just in the nick of time” to avoid a long lasting suspension from MLB. Or is it his “early demise?” I learned a bit about him in diggin’ around. His 39 homers were a record for SS, until Banks crested 40. He hit clean-up behind Ted WIlliams during his stint in Boston. His range wasn’t great, but he had sure hands and a cannon arm. He was stuck with the “lowly Browns” for the beginning of his career, yet led them to one of their few post-seasons ever, then got traded to Boston, where he emerged as a statistical beast.
Finally, people getting on the Frank White bandwagon. If it can even be called that? I’ve been saying every since Maz got in, that White should have also.
And I’m glad to see that someone else also thinks Minnie deserves to be in. In the 50’s, he was the best LF’er in baseball. Yes, even better than Williams.
Now, don’t get me wrong. Williams was the better hitter, far and away, and for one AB, I’d want Ted. But day in, day out, for defensse, speed, durability, hitting, stealing, Minnie was the best LF’er of the 50’s. Check out the numbers.
Kevin;
Just look at the difference is assist totals between Smith and Vizquel. Smith had a much greater range.
Not really sure Maz deserved to be in the HOF. If anything, he was only elected because he was the #1 best defensive 2B of all time. There’s only one number one, so saying someone is almost as good is not as much of an accomplishment. That said, I would like to see more attention to Frank White’s legendary defense. Due to the unique way he played the position, it can be argued he was the best ever on D.
Also, an important thing to remember is that postseason performance is enormously important for HOF consideration, but is almost never mentioned in the argument. The postseason may have put Catfish and Tony Perez over the top, and that could be what is keeping Santo out.
P.S. Duane Kuiper used to be my favorite player too, but now I am partial to Bo Jackson.
I haven’t checked the numbers lately, but I recall that Vern Stephens got a substantial boost by playing against inferior competition during WWII. Or so it’s been said to me more than once.
Wasn’t it Bill James who did a recent study on defense and voted MAZ the best defensive player ever–at any position? Correct me if I am wrong, but that is my recollection.
Kevin:
Were you really trying to make a case for Vizquel, or were you just trying to show a hypothetical case that someone COULD make for Vizquel?
If you were being serious, you are ignoring a couple of things. On offense, Vizquel played in an era where a lot more runs were being scored. In the context of their times, Ozzie was a much better offensive player. On defense, most advanced metrics have Ozzie as a runaway leader as greatest shortstop of all time. On the other hand, they say that Omar has been very good, but not great, over the course of his career, and nowhere close to the Wiz. Gold Gloves are, as I’m sure you know (since you did not list them), almost completely worthless. Overall, Ozzie was a better hitter, better defender and better baserunner than Omar. Omar has been good, but he’s definitely no Ozzie.
If you were simply showing that a case can be made for anyone, then well done.
The post-season excuse doesn’t really work in the Catfish/Tiant debate because Tiant was great in the LCS and World Series too. He didn’t get there as often, but he was special when he had the chance. I think the New York factor was bigger. If Luis had five or six years in pinstripes, like Catfish did, I think he’d be in the Hall now.
Didn’t Ted Williams once say that had Phil Rizzuto been on the Red Sox they would have won all those pennants, not the Yankees? If so, is it possible that apparent criticism of Stephens might have swayed voters into thinking he was not a winning shortstop.
Bryan – it was a little bit of both. I was showing that the case can be made. Obviously, there are some key numbers that differ, but they do have some similar numbers and I think the comparison can definitely be made.
The comments seem to be going in a different direction than the tongue-in-cheek article to which they are responding, but I’ll bite:
Why did HoF voters put Ryne Sandberg in rather easily, yet Lou Whitaker fell off the ballot after a lone season and Alan Trammell doesn’t appear to be destined to make it?
And why did the Vets Committee put about every third guy who played in the 30s and 40s in the Hall (and about nine of ten Yankees), yet Joe Gordon was left on the outside looking in? He was easily superior to his DP partner, Scooter Rizzuto, but Rizzuto made it and he didn’t.
re: Omar vs. Ozzie.
Omar played in a more offensive era, so his OPS+ is a couple of points behind Ozzie.
However, I think playing in a more offensive era has DIMINISHED Vizquel’s accomplishments, rather than inflated them. First of all, does the fact that the league was juiced up and jacking a gazillion homers benefit a switch-hitting slap hitter and bunting specialist a whole lot? Not at all. If anything, it devalues that player’s small ball contributions to the game. Comparing their OPS+ numbers, Ozzie’s are legit while Omar is getting graded on a curve when half the class had the answers to the exam.
Furthermore, due to his era and his team, Ozzie defined those Cardinals. They didn’t hit much, but they had great pitching, played great defense, and ran like crazy on that Astroturf. Plus Ozzie played in an era when your shortstop was a defensive player, and not expected to hit 30-40 HRs. So as a defensive player, he racked up a multitude of All-Star appearances.
Omar, on the other hand, was a small-ball 1980s Cardinals player playing in lineups that could mash the cover off the ball all day….lineups that had Jim Thome and Manny Ramirez batting 6th an 7th. By design, he was an offensive footnote on that team. And since Jeter, Nomar, and A-Rod were jacking 20-50 HRs a year, he often got overlooked league-wide as well.
But when people ask me about all of the great Indians from the 90s on, I always tell them that the greatest of them all was Omar Vizquel. Watching that guy play shortstop for 11 years was one of the greatest gifts baseball has ever given me.
Nevermind that he was probably the most sure-handed shortstop ever, but the sheer inventiveness of his play was astounding, whether it be perfecting the barehanded play for almost any situation, his ability to deal with bad hops, or even his habit of turning his back to the infield to catch pop ups backward on sunny days.
Ozzie had better range. Omar had better hands. They were nearly identical players offensively. And while Ozzie may have been better defensively, Omar was hands down the best in his generation and one of the top handful to ever play the position.
The biggest difference is that Ozzie benefited from his small-ball era, while Omar was at a disadvantage for being an Ozzie-type small-ball player in the steroid era. Had their careers been reversed, Omar would already be in and people would be making shots at Ozzie’s lack of offense in the 90s and 00s.
I’ve been on the “Omar for HOF” bandwagon for a while now, and I was excited when Baseball Tonight was looking at some players winding down their careers, and while they debated the HOF merits of some of them, when it came to Omar, it was a unanimous “yes” across the board without any dissenting opinion.
Hopefully that’s a harbinger of things to come.
And I used to think that *I* got riled up about Omar being a HOFer, but the day that I spent 10 minutes during batting practice talking about Omar with Davey Concepcion made me feel like I was half-assed in my commitment.
Those of us in the SF Bay Area know Kuiper not only as a slap-hitting second baseman, but as a superb play-by-play man. He and his color partner Mike Krukow (Kruk and Kuip) are a phenomenal team. We’re blessed to have them.
As for HOF comparisons, I have two comments:
First, Bert Blyleven had more strikeouts (5th all-time) than Walter Johnson. I say anyone who has more strikeouts than The Big Train (who held the record for many decades) should go right in.
Second, those right fielders you listed pale in comparison to Andre Dawson. .279/.323/.482, 2774 hits, 438 homers, 1591 RBI’s, 314 SB’s, 8 Gold Gloves, and 25th all-time in total bases, ahead of Rogers Hornsby and Ernie Banks. The guys you listed didn’t even have 200 homers. The Hawk could do it all.
Yes, this is thread necromancy, but I thought I’d point this out for Jacob’s benefit, as well as anybody else who’s seen Vern Stephen’s numbers and wondered how he didn’t get into the Hall of Fame:
One of the chapters in Bill James’s book ‘Whatever Happened to The Hall of Fame?’ (formerly ‘The Politics of Glory’) is entitled “Stephens and Rizzuto”, and goes into a great deal of very entertaining detail about the careers (and post-playing lives) of these two men.
In fact, I’m going to go re-read that chapter right now.