Comments on: Pozcars Ballot …

By: will

will — Thu, 03 Jan 2008 21:23:50 +0000

Excellent stuff Joe, first time here thanks to Keith Law’s blog.

By: S.S.

S.S. — Wed, 02 Jan 2008 23:13:39 +0000

I would just like to make one thing VERY clear as a Red Sox fan- I and most of the Sox fans I know feel very strongly that Rice is NOT deserving of the HOF.
I am simply tired of being lumped in with the group of Sox fans who believe he is deserving. The only HOF Rice should be in is the one for ability to hit into the 6-4-3.

By: Chub

Chub — Fri, 21 Dec 2007 00:57:58 +0000

I would vote for Mark McGwire because I bet he bought his younger brother Dan McGwire a birthday gift.

By: Ryan

Ryan — Thu, 20 Dec 2007 22:47:47 +0000

I agree with Aaron. McGwire and Sosa and should have their own wing in the HOF, with a complementary juice bar.

By: Ricky

Ricky — Thu, 20 Dec 2007 21:44:52 +0000

“Hey, that’s not a ghost! It’s SkeptiSys, the butler. He wanted to scare away all the Jim Rice fans away so he could this place all to himself for Dick Allen!”

“And I would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn’t for you meddling kids! Well, and Paul White.”

By: Oddibe Kerfeld

Oddibe Kerfeld — Thu, 20 Dec 2007 20:28:44 +0000

The great Scooby Doo vs. Chief Wahoo debate is just around the corner. Until then,

[Bat's squeaking]

Scooby-Dooby-Doo, Where Are You? We got some work to do now!
Scooby-Dooby-Doo, Where Are You? We need some help from you now.

Come on Scooby-Doo, I see you… pretending you got a sliver
But you’re not fooling me, cause I can see, the way you shake and shiver.

You know we got a mystery to solve, so Scooby Doo be ready for your act.
Don’t hold back!

And Scooby Doo if you come through you’re gonna
have yourself a scooby snack!
That’s a fact!

Scooby-Dooby-Doo, here are you. You’re ready and you’re willin’.
If we can count on you Scooby Doo, I know we’ll catch that villian.

By: Andy in Lawrence

Andy in Lawrence — Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:24:00 +0000

I was just wondering if you left Frank White & Dan Quisenberry off of the list intentionally? I know that you’ve written great articles about their worthiness before.

By: Paul White

Paul White — Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:10:18 +0000

Dude, lighten the #$%& up. Scooby Doo was a joke. You know, a light-hearted statement intended to amuse. If you took it as an “insult”, hey, sorry your feelings got all bent. But let’s hop into the wayback machine and note how this digital conversation started….

“Then again, Dick Allen is a better candidate for the Hall than Jim Rice (meaning better qualifications). Donâ€™t you agree, Paul White?” — SkeptiSys

Sure does seem like you were soliciting my opinion on the matter, so I gave it, with nary an insult to be seen. Even kinda sorta agreed that Allen’s got a case, just not one I happen to buy into. Rather than let that just end it, you decided to tell me I was wrong to hold that opinion. Okay, fair enough. I don’t agree, but I figured this should be kept light, hence Don Zimmer’s aneurysm and Scooby Doo. Should have been the end of things. Sorry you decided to press the matter.

Wanna take a pill, calm down, and let the matter drop so Joe’s post doesn’t devolve into the Dick Allen Defensive Analytics Hour?

By: SkeptiSys

SkeptiSys — Thu, 20 Dec 2007 17:18:31 +0000

“I never said Rice was the best offensive Hall candidate”
I don’t see where I made the claim that you did. I summed up Rice’s hall argument. Some or most of them you have made, but that really wasn’t my point. My point was that Rice is a poor candidate for the Hall.

“I never said the DH made Rice more valuable defensively”
It appeared that you did, and again as you state “…about DH time, it provides 0 defensive value. But last time I checked, 0 is higher than -40, which is Allen cumulative FRAA at third base”

I don’t have faith in FRAA, and I cannot see how a DH has more value than all below average fielders. Makes you wonder why the Yanks don’t make Jeter DH. Do you really believe Rice would have as much value as an average fielding SS, as he would as a DH? That appears to be the logical conclusion of your argument (0=0).
For one benefit, Allen at 3rd allowed Bill White and others to play 1st, who could not play 3rd. For another, I claimed he was decent for 3 years at 3rd base. Your listed FRAA agrees with that assessment. It takes much more defensive talent to be an average 3rd baseman, than an average fielding LF or DH. They would have to be equal for your argument to begin to make sense.

Your guess that Allen would’ve played DH if it were available, is irrelevant to any Hall argument.

Lf/DH are close to the lowest rung of the fielding ladder and Rice is below average for that group, so I am not making any extraordinary claims by suggesting Allen had more defensive value than Rice. Your instinct to turn to insults and scooby doo references are more reflective of your cultish following of Jim Rice, rather than logic.

By: Paul White

Paul White — Thu, 20 Dec 2007 16:14:56 +0000

Skeptisys – Some of the points you just made about my comments might be correct if I ever actually made them. Sadly, I didn’t make most of them. I never said Rice was the best offensive Hall candidate (in fact, if you scroll up in this thread, you’ll see me explicitly say Allen was a better hitter). I never said the DH made Rice more valuable defensively, I said the only reason Allen didn’t DH was because it wasn’t an option most of his career. I also never said Rice should be a Hall of Fame because of fictional time at shortstop, that was just an illustration of your silly argument about Allen’s defense. And I never said Allen had no defensive value, what I said is he had less than Rice.

All I did was point out that your argument about Dick Allen’s defensive value is full of holes. It rests entirely upon his time at third base and he played the grand total of ONE season at third where he wasn’t distinctly below average defensively. In his very first year, he posted 9 FRAA. His years of not being a defensive liability thus came to an end. He gave all of that FRAA back with a -9 performance the very next year and followed that up with -2 and then an almost unheard of -19 in 1967, which immediately preceeded a permanent removal of Allen from the position. He played only 100 or so additional games at third base for the final decade of his career and still sucked when he did so (-17 FRAA in those games). None of that speaks well for his defensive value, and does nothing but prove my point that the only reason he ever played the position was because the Phillies were too stupid to play him elsewhere and couldn’t stick him at DH where at least he wouldn’t be detracting from the team. You’re right about DH time, it provides 0 defensive value. But last time I checked, 0 is higher than -40, which is Allen cumulative FRAA at third base.

Put it this way, Rice (who I never said was a good defender, just a better one than he’s generally credited with being) compiled -51 FRAA in his 1500+ games in left field. Allen compiled the exact same total of FRAA, -51, in about HALF that many games at the only position that is lower on the defensive spectrum, first base. But, despite the numbers you’re swimming against, feel free to continue your claim that Allen somehow managed to have more defensive value than Rice. (Or anyone else, for that matter.)