Pozcars Ballot …
Posted: December 19th, 2007 | Filed under: Baseball | 33 Comments »
Well, I can tell you sending out hundreds of Pozcars ballots was fun. No, really, lots of fun. That was a good idea I came up with. Maybe next I can do a blog post where I try to see if it really hurts to bang my head against a the hood of an Altima or, perhaps, a Jetta. Maybe I can bang my head against cars of various makes and models to see what hurts more. Yeah, I’m talking that kind of fun.
But we’ve done it … we’ve sent out the first batch of Pozcars ballots. Well, “we†didn’t do squat — I did it. Sheesh. At one point, my wife said to me: “What exactly are you getting out of this?†To which I said, you know, nothing, because I couldn’t think of anything to say at that particular moment. But you know how sometimes, long after the moment, you think of the perfect thing to say? Well, no, this wasn’t one of those times. I still don’t know what I’m getting out of this.
In any case, I can tell you we have Pozcars voters from at least 10 different countries, which makes this without any doubt the most universally appreciated fake award ever given out on the Internet. Maybe. I can also tell you that I did try to read your reasons for wanting to be Pozcars voters, and they were funny, but after about 129 of them they start to blend together. One that stands out was the person who wants to be Pozcar voter because, as a convicted felon, he can’t vote for anything else.
What follows is the official letter of invitation sent out to the Pozcar voters along with the first ballot, this one for the Baseball Hall of Fame. If you applied to be a voter and did not get a ballot, I can only think of three possibilities.
1. You were turned down by the unyielding standards of the Pozcar Board of Admittance (yeah, I’m looking right at you Beyonce; we can’t just let anyone in).
2. I somehow overlooked your email. Send me another one at this email.
3. Spam, spam, spam, spam, spam-a-dee spam.
In any case, here is what the invitation looks like, along with the ballot:
* * *
Dear Potential Pozcars Voter,
Hi, my name is Joe Posnanski, and I am cordially inviting you to take part in the voting for a new fake Internet award I like to call “The Pozcars.†There are, best I can figure, only four ways you would be getting this email.
1. You were one of the many people who actually APPLIED to vote for this fake award. What is wrong with you?
2. You are a friend of mine and, thus, subject to my goofy ideas.
3. You were nominated by someone who happened to have your email.
4. You are someone famous who I admire and, as such, do not deserve to have this mass email thrust upon you.
In any case, this will be the last unsolicited email you receive, at least from me. The way to become a Pozcars’ voter is to respond to this email with your Hall of Fame vote (see ballot on bottom of email). The way to forever be rid of any and all Pozcars talk is to not respond. You will be automatically withdrawn.
Many of you have asked: What exactly are the Pozcars? I can answer this way: I have absolutely no idea. It was a bad idea I came up with in the middle of the night after eating Papa John’s Pizza. That stuff will play tricks on your mind, man. But once the idea was set into motion — to create a fake award voted on by a whole lot of cool people — there’s was no stopping it. Apparently.
These are the ground rules:
1. We’ll vote on all sorts of stuff. Most of it will be baseball, but there might be a “Top 10 Springsteen songs†or “Worst sitcom ever†or “Who should be kicked out of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame†vote down the line.
2. Your identity and vote will be kept in complete secret unless you don’t want it to be secret or I just think it’s too good to keep secret.
3. We at the Pozcars have absolutely no problem at all with ethical issues. If someone wants to pay you for your vote, spend that money without guilt. Buy yourself something nice. Maybe something for kids.
4. You are more than welcome to use your status as a fully-registered Pozcars voter on resumes, Facebook, My Space, your imdb site or as a way to get dates. Pozcars Inc. takes no responsibility for you getting shot down, however.
5. Repeat: To become a fully registers Pozcars voter, you must send a return email with your Hall of Fame vote. I will be deleting anyone who does not respond from the registry so that I don’t end up bothering people who didn’t even want to get this email.
6. We’ll make T-shirts at some point, maybe. You like that logo? My wife made it (if you do not like it, and say so publicly, you may have your Pozcars voting rights withdrawn … or I may laugh, it depends how you say it).
Thank you for reading this far and welcome. As our official Pozcars slogan says: “We don’t have a slogan yet.â€
All the best,
Joe Posnanski
CEO/President/Creative Director/Janitor of The Pozcars
* * *
OK, now for the ballot. This is (more or less) the same ballot that Baseball Writers Association voters will be voting on this year. The BBWAA asks that voting be based on: “The player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character and contribution to the team(s) on which the player played.â€
Yeah, the BBWAA has integrity, sportsmanship AND character listed in that one paragraph.
Here at the Pozcars, we place no such restrictions on our voters. We’re a restriction-free award. You can vote for whoever you want for whatever reason you want. If you want to vote for those steroid cheats, feel free! In fact, you may notice a couple of people on this ballot who are not allowed on the BBWAA ballot.
The only real rule is that you can only vote up to 10 of these players. No more. You can vote zero, if you like, but you CAN’T VOTE MORE THAN TEN. I mean this enough to put it all capital letters.
The deadline is Dec. 31. Results along with an unnecessarily long post will be on my blog at www.joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog.
Just send your choices (up to 10) back to this address in the following fashion.
Your name
Player 1
Player 2
Player 3
Player 4
Etc.
I think that’s all. Here is the ballot with a comment on each player. The rest of the research is up to you.
– Brady Anderson: One of two players to hit 50 homers in a season and also steal 50 bases in a season.
– Harold Baines: The consummate professional hitter.
– Rod Beck: Had 286 saves; 51 with the Cubs one year.
– Bert Blyleven: Fifth all-time in strikeouts; Chris Berman gets full marks for his Bert “be home†Blyleven nickname.
– Dave Concepcion: Gold-glove shortstop of the Big Red Machine (I hear a great Big Red Machine book is coming in 2009!)
– Andre Dawson: Eight-time Gold Glove winner and one of only three men to hit 400-plus homers and steal 300-plus bases (other two are Willie Mays and Barry Bonds).
– Shawon Dunston: Cubs shortstop with fabulous arm. He also had a fabulous arm
– Chuck Finley: Exactly 200 victories and a fine 115 ERA+ for the big lefty.
– Travis Fryman: Five-time All-Star hit 345 homers and won a Gold Glove as a third baseman.
– Goose Gossage: Nine-time All-Star was utterly dominant from 1975-85.
– Joe Jackson: Shoeless Joe has been played in movies by both Ray Liotta* and D.B. Sweeney.
* Liotta played Jackson as a right-handed batter, which was infuriating since Jackson had, supposedly, one of the sweetest left-handed swings ever, so good that Babe Ruth reportedly copied it. I once asked the late Rod Dedeaux, who was a baseball consultant for the movie, how he could possibly have let that happen. He said, “You should have seen him hit left-handed. Believe me that would have looked worse.â€
– Tommy John: Won 288 games and had a surgery named after him.
– David Justice: Twice hit 40 homers in a season; hit 305 homers for his career
– Chuck Knoblauch: Four-time All Star hit .333 and .341 in back-to-back years.
– Don Mattingly: Former MVP and batting champion; Donnie Baseball won nine Gold Gloves.
– Mark McGwire: FIrst man to hit 70 homers in a season; Hit a homer ever 10.6 at-bats, best ratio in baseball history.
– Jack Morris: Won 254 games and pitched 10 shutout innings in Game 7 of 1991 World Series.
– Dale Murphy: Two-time MVP was the face of the Atlanta Braves, and perhaps baseball, for much for the 1980s.
– Robb Nen: He saved 314 games despite retiring when he was 32 years old.
– Dave Parker: The Cobra won an MVP and finished in the Top 5 in the MVP voting four other times.
– Tim Raines: He stole 808 bases, fifth all-time, and was successful an astonishing 84.6% of the time.
– Jim Rice: Eight-time All-Star won the 1978 MVP award and was considered by many to be the most fearsome hitter in baseball.
– Jose Rijo: Won 116 games, led 1990 Reds to World Series and I thought he was an all-time great guy.
– Pete Rose: All-time hit leader.
– Lee Smith: Trevor Hoffman just passed him in saves, so his 478 is second all-time. Still finished more games (802) than any player in baseball history.
– Todd Stottlemyre: Won 138 games and won the Branch Rickey and Lou Gehrig Awards in 2000.
– Alan Trammell: Four-time Gold Glove winner and one of the better hitting shortstops in baseball history. Won the 1984 World Series MVP.
OK, that’s the whole list. Again, if you would like to vote, please just reply to this email with your list, each player on a separate line. You can vote up to 10. The deadline is Dec. 31. If you want to put some comments, feel free to put them at the bottom of your email. Thank you for participating and happy holidays.
Loading ...
My ballots in. Thanks for hosting the Pozcars
Aren’t some of these guys still playing? How can you vote them into the hall of fame while they are still active? I thought I saw Trammell against the Indians last year at Municipal Stadium. Ken Schrom won 7-5 thanks to a Brook Jacoby blast and some smooth glove work by Brett Butler.
Ok, well, if I have to vote I’ll go with Bob Forsch and Kent Tekulve. They are the tops!
P.S. Please come to my rally tonight in Keokuk. It’s down to crazy Iowa crunch time. Snap, crackle, pop rice crispies.
Condolences on your loss, Rep. Kucinich.
You had Travis Fryman hitting 345 homers on the ballot(which might have merited some consideration but looking at his other numbers… not really) however that’s incorrect… he had 345 doubles and 223 Homers.
As for the others – Some suffered from my bias as a long suffering Royals Fan::
Brady Anderson – Ranks up there with Luis Gonzalez and Shawn Green on the they had to be juicing scale.
Harold Baines – 144 hits from 3000, 16 homers short of 400… Nice career but not quite good enough.
Rod Beck – Good closer in his prime, but not good enough.
Blyleven – Rik got my vote.
Dave Concepcion – Well, he was a better hitter than Ozzy Smith but seriously…
Andre Dawson – Unlike Raines, Olympic Stadium killed his numbers. Borderline HoF candidate.
Shawon Dunston – Ummm… NO!
Chuck Finley – Solid lefty – not good enough.
Travis Fryman – as mentioned above even with an extra 122 homers… I’d pass.
Goose Gossage – Won’t ever get my vote since Quiz was better during the same era.
Shoeless Joe: I’m letting him in.
Tommy John: Really good before the surgery, but nah.
David Justice: Really good hitter but career too short.
Chuck Knoblauch – No way even before the Mitchell Report.
Don Mattingly – Even if he was good enough for long enough(which he wasn’t) he stole Brett’s MvP so no vote from me!
Mark McGwire – Tough call for me, but Big Mac is getting forgiveness along with Shoeless Joe. Besides, he could crush baseballs when he was a skinny kid.
Jack Morris – No way in hell.
Dale Murphy – if he wouldn’t have fallen off a cliff at 32.
Robb Nen – See Rod Beck
Dave Parker – will never forget the throw in the all-star game- those 5 lost seasons in the early 80s leaves him outside looking in.
Tim Raines – we all know my thoughts here.
Jim Rice – Like Baines, Murphy, Parker and imo Raines… not good enough for long enough.
Jose Rijo – nice pitcher too bad he didn’t last long enough.
Pete Rose – Hated him. Still have images of him bouncing the ball off the turf in 1980 series after 3rd out. I know he was a great player but I didn’t vote for him.
Lee Smith – Numbers are fine… but just doesn’t feel like a Hall of Famer. Not sure why my bias on this one.
Todd Stottlemyre – no
Alan Trammell – Very good player… always equated him with Molitor back in the day. If he could have stayed healthy….
Who’s hosting the Pozcars ceremony?
Vance DeGeneres might be available.
Anybody want to buy my vote? I’m sure of a couple but I still have some to sell.
2 things I don’t understand:
what is the argument against Tommy John?
why don’t people think Davey Concepcion belongs in the HOF? I saw him play shortstop.
Fran
One good reason to go against Concepcion is to stick it to that gasbag Joe Morgan, who still won’t shut up about him. The patented one-hop AstroTurf throw from short was awesome though.
Tony Fernandez was a better hitter and better fielder than Conception. Then again, Dick Allen is a better candidate for the Hall than Jim Rice (meaning better qualifications). Don’t you agree, Paul White?
The ballot I just sent looks like this – Blyleven, Dawson, Gossage, Murphy, Raines, Rice, Trammell. If I listed the reasons why, this comment would never end, so I won’t. Instead here’s a few thoughts on people I didn’t vote for:
Baines – The ultimate compiler.
Concepcion – Great defender who was lost at home plate most of the time. His top comps include Bobby Wallace and Tony Fernandez, both of whom were better than Concepcion, followed by Omar Vizquel, who’s just about the same hitter but a better fielder, and then…Royce Clayton. Case closed.
Jackson – Sorry, no cheaters.
John – Only would vote for him as a pioneer because of the surgery. As a player he was the pitching equivalent of Baines; a compiler.
Mattingly – Worse than any number of first basemen who’ve been passed over (Gil Hodges, Norm Cash, Boog Powell, Keith Hernandez, Will Clark). Only lasted this long because of four great seasons covered in New York hype.
Morris – 3.90 ERA, 105 ERA+. Nope.
Parker – Almost pulled the trigger because he’s better than a good number of the right fielders already in the Hall, but that five-year void in the middle of his career was self-inflicted, and I just can’t overlook it.
Rose – Sorry, no gamblers.
Finally, I’m reserving my opinion on Mark McGwire. If there was a mythical third check box next to each guy’s name that said “Maybe Later”, that’s what I’d check. The reason is that I think he’s a cheat, but for all I know he might have been facing mostly cheaters too. Through age 30, when it became obvious that his body was changing drastically, McGwire was a markedly worse overall player than Jim Rice, who many (not me) see as a borderline HOF candidate. Then, out of the blue, at an age when most sluggers , like Rice, see their power drop, McGwire suddenly posted the following slugging percentages – .685, .730, .646, .752, .697, .746 – any one of which would have been at least 30 points better than any full season he played up to that point. In other words, color me skeptical about his natural abilities. On the other hand, if we later find out that massive numbers of McGwire’s opponents were also juiced, and he just happened to be a better juicer than anyone else, I’d have a hard time separating all of the various accomplishemnts of this era and would likely throw him a vote anyway. Hence, “Maybe Later”.
I think Dick Allen and Jim Rice have pretty even cases. Allen was a better hitter, no question. But Rice was more durable, was a better defender (believe it or not) and there’s genuine evidence that Allen really was a clubhouse cancer (bouncing from team to team, refusing to play in the playoffs, teams getting better after he left, etc.), and that counts. I’d vote for him on the merits of his hitting ability anyway.
Joe, is there going to be a retroactive ballot for guys who aren’t on the one you sent out? I’d love to vote for Allen, Bobby Grich, Bad Bill Dahlen, Lou Whitaker and a few others.
Can we vote people out of the Hall of Fame too?
I watched Pete Rose play. So I have no questions there.
I wondered about Shoeless Joe, I wondered if we were talking about a short peak & who knows how he would have aged, but then I looked at the stats. I have probably looked at his stats before, but before you cast him out, look at them again.
I know it isn’t the game we see today but that 1920 season must have been amazing to watch….
Anyway, so far I have Pete & Joe Jackson & Tim Raines & everybody says Blyleven, and I watched Gossage pitch; and Joe P has made a case for Dale Murphy, and I always liked Rice. So I’m up to 6 or 7.
G’night.
Unfortunately, I was too busy with finals week to register as a Pozcars voter, but here’s what my ballot would have looked like:
Bert Blyleven – nearly 300 wins, 3700 Ks, and a 3.30 ERA that’s inflated by a tough (though still acceptable) last few years (although that 38 year old season in 89 is impressive) at the end of what had already been an incredible career.
Goose Gossage – A few truly dominant years, and a fabulous prime. Kept plugging into his 40s as a serviceable reliever.
Joe Jackson – No question in my mind. When I was a kid, I was fascinated with the 1919 scandal, and I always found myself sympathizing with Shoeless Joe. Calling him a cheater is off-base, I think. He hit better than anyone else on either team in that Series. If I recall correctly (I may not, I don’t know), he did try to inform the Sox front office sometime afterward, but they turned a deaf ear toward him. My take on the whole thing was that he was an incredible player who saw an opportunity to get paid an extra 5 grand (on top of his 6 grand salary), and took it while still playing his ass off. Again, I could be wrong, but I’ve always found it much easier to side with Jackson and company than with Charlie Comiskey.
Tommy John – That was a long and impressive career.
Mark McGwire – This was a tough one. Steroid use was, in my mind, spread almost entirely around the league– the Mitchell report relied on the knowledge of 2 or 3 guys, and that turned up over 80 users, and for some reason, I don’t think that every steroid user in the league was getting there stuff from 2 or 3 sources. Anyway, moving on: McGwire’s late career surge is sketchy, no doubt. He could still hit a baseball before 30, but not quite the same way. However, operating under my assumptions about the steroid era, I see nearly 600 home runs, and it’s clear that he outdid his opposition.
Tim Raines – Astounding leadoff hitter for at least 10 years, and then finished his career off with several more years as a useful role player.
Pete Rose – Almost didn’t make it. I’m not blown away by any of his numbers really, and that’s all I have to go off of. He didn’t have any truly incredible years. He was solid. Very, very solid. The thing that kept him on my ballot was that he maintained that level of production for SO long. 15 years is a long time to keep an OBP in the high 300s to low 400s while playing around 150-162 games a season. His hit crown has little to nothing to do with it for me. Normally, I don’t like arguments against “longevity” guys. In the cases of guys like Bert Blyleven, the reason that they hung around was because they were still good, useful players. At the end of his career, I don’t see that from Rose. There’s no way he should’ve gotten to play as much as he did from 1982 on, and without those years, he’d still be far behind Cobb. Still, he gets in because he was a very good leadoff hitter for a very long time.
Oops. I sent in a ballot even though I didn’t register. I guess I failed, but failing is what I do the best.
I just don’t understand the hatred for McGwire or why he wasn’t voted in. McGwire and Sosa both deserve to be enshrined in the most special part of the HOF. Without them our sport would have been dead within 20 years. They singlehandedly brought interest back to what most people consider to be an inherently boring game.
Let’s turn to a good old numbers argument. How much further would you say steroids helped someone hit the ball? 10% maybe 20%? Running some quick numbers using an excel spreadsheet with the distance numbers from McGwire’s 70 HR year, I came up with this:
10% – 61 HRs
15% – 49
20% – 37
That was assuming at Home he had to hit a ball 336 ft to get a HR which is LF in old Busch. On the road I assumed 330. Even without this analysis. he hit 46 HRs longer than 400 ft!! Those are ridiculous numbers with or without steroids.
If I was going to pick a number that helped him though I would say it was probably between 10-15%. IF HE DID IT.
“IF HE DID IT.”
IF he did it???
“I’m not here to talk about the past.”
That said, I’ll be voting for him.
Jim Rice may possibly have been a better fielder than Dick Allen. However; with 652 games at 3rd base, and 527 fewer games at DH, Dick Allen had much more fielding value than Rice.
I think of Rice as a shade below Dave Parker. One a slightly better hitter (after park adjustment), the other a much better fielder. Neither makes my ballot, though.
If Dave Kingman had steroids and a personality, he’d be Mark McGwire.
Mark Mcgwire – Least walks in a 130+ game season: 71
Dick Kingman – Most walks in ANY season: 61
Mark McGwire – career OBP: .394
Dave Kingman- career OBP: .302
Mark McGwire – career SLG: .588
Dave Kingman – career SLG: .478
Yep, I totally see it…. NOT!
Mr. Posnanski, a word of advice, if you don’t mind (selfishly offered because I don’t want you to burn out and stop blogging): a consultation with your friendly neighborhood web guru would alleviate a lot of the pain and suffering of this process. Did you add each e-mail by hand? Are you going to look and tabulate each response yourself? Yikes.
It reminds me of a friend who wanted to make his Corolla look like a Ferarri (this was in 1985, he was 17). He knew a little about fiberglass fabrication, so he thought it would be easy. He ended up driving around for a couple of years in an amorphous blob of bondo and duct tape. Please don’t let this happen to you.
Sorry, I don’t buy the Dick Allen defensive value argument. Allen was an absolute butcher at every position he tried. To claim that Rice was a better fielder, but somehow didn’t have as much overall defensive value because A) Allen played most of his career before the DH was an option, and B) the Phillies were moronic enough to make him the worst defensive third baseman in the league, seems a touch silly. By that logic, had Don Zimmer suffered an aneurysm that made him decide to play Jim Rice everyday at shortstop, where he surely would have been the worst defensive shortstop in memory, Rice’s defensive value would actually go UP. Sorry, but that one makes me do the full-blown Scooby-Doo “Ruh?”, complete with violent head shake.
I’m a proud Pozcar voter and would like to know what people think about Dale Murphy. I remember him as a major force, major force who faded abruptly. But I don’t remember his numbers.
I know, I know, I need to get Bill James’s book, and I will. In the meantime, would anyone care to lay out the numbers and an analysis of Mr. Murphy’s career?
Haha, Paul. Your arguments for Rice are always good for a laugh, and this time is no exception.
You know this, but I never said that Rice was a better fielder, I said it was possible.
During his 1st 3 seasons, Allen made more plays at 3rd base than the average, so his fielding % was not horrible despite all the errors. He clearly had defensive value.
The Rice at SS argument is silly, because nobody goes into the Hall based on what positions they might have played, and he contributed nothing towards winning while at SS. Allen made significant defensive contributions at 3rd. By your argument, we can say Jose Canseco has more defensive value than Derek Jeter, because they could have made him the worst fielding SS in the league as well. Not useful.
Even wackier is your argument that the DH actually increases Rice’s defensive value. If it wasn’t for the DH, his offensive numbers would not be as good (would sit out), and he contributed 0 defensively during his DH games.
Allen clearly contributed more defensively to his teams winning than Rice did. In real life, not if Allen was a DH or if Rice was a SS or if they both played 2B for the 1905 NY Highlanders.
Look, I know you love Rice, but his Hall argument is basically 3 or 4 great seasons, the best of which are 1977-79. In these 3 seasons he played about 200 games at DH (198). Rice isn’t even close to the best offensive Hall candidate, but the only other positives about him are excuses:
1) he wasn’t really a horrible fielder, like people thought
2) his 4 million GIDPs weren’t that damaging as they appear
3) he wasn’t as bad a personality as they said
4) although he flamed out early, he might of come back from his horrible last season, if only he got the chance
5) Fenway didn’t help him that much
6) but I thought he was a HOF when I saw him as a kid
If we gave these many do-overs to Dave Kingman, he would be a first ballot Hall of Famer. So would Greg Luzinski.
To answer antoniomo’s question about Dale Murphy, he was a very good player who won back-to-back MVP awards for the Braves and was considered by many to be the best player in the National League, or even all of baseball, from 1982 to 1987. He was a fine defensive center fielder and one of the true gentlemen in the history of the game.
Only parts of that are true. Murphy really was one of the true gentlemen in the game’s history, and he was a fine, if somewhat overrated, defensive center fielder. He was not the best player in the baseball or the NL for that time period. Mike Schmidt was, and it’s not really all that close (72.5 WARP3 for Schmidt during the 82-87 period; just 51.8 for Murphy). Each of his MVP awards is also debatable. Schmidt could have easily been MVP in either ‘82 or ‘83 and others are in that conversation as well.
Aside from these peak years, Murphy didn’t put up any other Hall of Fame seasons. But his peak was high enough that I voted for him anyway.
Skeptisys – Some of the points you just made about my comments might be correct if I ever actually made them. Sadly, I didn’t make most of them. I never said Rice was the best offensive Hall candidate (in fact, if you scroll up in this thread, you’ll see me explicitly say Allen was a better hitter). I never said the DH made Rice more valuable defensively, I said the only reason Allen didn’t DH was because it wasn’t an option most of his career. I also never said Rice should be a Hall of Fame because of fictional time at shortstop, that was just an illustration of your silly argument about Allen’s defense. And I never said Allen had no defensive value, what I said is he had less than Rice.
All I did was point out that your argument about Dick Allen’s defensive value is full of holes. It rests entirely upon his time at third base and he played the grand total of ONE season at third where he wasn’t distinctly below average defensively. In his very first year, he posted 9 FRAA. His years of not being a defensive liability thus came to an end. He gave all of that FRAA back with a -9 performance the very next year and followed that up with -2 and then an almost unheard of -19 in 1967, which immediately preceeded a permanent removal of Allen from the position. He played only 100 or so additional games at third base for the final decade of his career and still sucked when he did so (-17 FRAA in those games). None of that speaks well for his defensive value, and does nothing but prove my point that the only reason he ever played the position was because the Phillies were too stupid to play him elsewhere and couldn’t stick him at DH where at least he wouldn’t be detracting from the team. You’re right about DH time, it provides 0 defensive value. But last time I checked, 0 is higher than -40, which is Allen cumulative FRAA at third base.
Put it this way, Rice (who I never said was a good defender, just a better one than he’s generally credited with being) compiled -51 FRAA in his 1500+ games in left field. Allen compiled the exact same total of FRAA, -51, in about HALF that many games at the only position that is lower on the defensive spectrum, first base. But, despite the numbers you’re swimming against, feel free to continue your claim that Allen somehow managed to have more defensive value than Rice. (Or anyone else, for that matter.)
“I never said Rice was the best offensive Hall candidate”
I don’t see where I made the claim that you did. I summed up Rice’s hall argument. Some or most of them you have made, but that really wasn’t my point. My point was that Rice is a poor candidate for the Hall.
“I never said the DH made Rice more valuable defensively”
It appeared that you did, and again as you state “…about DH time, it provides 0 defensive value. But last time I checked, 0 is higher than -40, which is Allen cumulative FRAA at third base”
I don’t have faith in FRAA, and I cannot see how a DH has more value than all below average fielders. Makes you wonder why the Yanks don’t make Jeter DH. Do you really believe Rice would have as much value as an average fielding SS, as he would as a DH? That appears to be the logical conclusion of your argument (0=0).
For one benefit, Allen at 3rd allowed Bill White and others to play 1st, who could not play 3rd. For another, I claimed he was decent for 3 years at 3rd base. Your listed FRAA agrees with that assessment. It takes much more defensive talent to be an average 3rd baseman, than an average fielding LF or DH. They would have to be equal for your argument to begin to make sense.
Your guess that Allen would’ve played DH if it were available, is irrelevant to any Hall argument.
Lf/DH are close to the lowest rung of the fielding ladder and Rice is below average for that group, so I am not making any extraordinary claims by suggesting Allen had more defensive value than Rice. Your instinct to turn to insults and scooby doo references are more reflective of your cultish following of Jim Rice, rather than logic.
Dude, lighten the #$%& up. Scooby Doo was a joke. You know, a light-hearted statement intended to amuse. If you took it as an “insult”, hey, sorry your feelings got all bent. But let’s hop into the wayback machine and note how this digital conversation started….
“Then again, Dick Allen is a better candidate for the Hall than Jim Rice (meaning better qualifications). Don’t you agree, Paul White?” — SkeptiSys
Sure does seem like you were soliciting my opinion on the matter, so I gave it, with nary an insult to be seen. Even kinda sorta agreed that Allen’s got a case, just not one I happen to buy into. Rather than let that just end it, you decided to tell me I was wrong to hold that opinion. Okay, fair enough. I don’t agree, but I figured this should be kept light, hence Don Zimmer’s aneurysm and Scooby Doo. Should have been the end of things. Sorry you decided to press the matter.
Wanna take a pill, calm down, and let the matter drop so Joe’s post doesn’t devolve into the Dick Allen Defensive Analytics Hour?
I was just wondering if you left Frank White & Dan Quisenberry off of the list intentionally? I know that you’ve written great articles about their worthiness before.
The great Scooby Doo vs. Chief Wahoo debate is just around the corner. Until then,
[Bat's squeaking]
Scooby-Dooby-Doo, Where Are You? We got some work to do now!
Scooby-Dooby-Doo, Where Are You? We need some help from you now.
Come on Scooby-Doo, I see you… pretending you got a sliver
But you’re not fooling me, cause I can see, the way you shake and shiver.
You know we got a mystery to solve, so Scooby Doo be ready for your act.
Don’t hold back!
And Scooby Doo if you come through you’re gonna
have yourself a scooby snack!
That’s a fact!
Scooby-Dooby-Doo, here are you. You’re ready and you’re willin’.
If we can count on you Scooby Doo, I know we’ll catch that villian.
“Hey, that’s not a ghost! It’s SkeptiSys, the butler. He wanted to scare away all the Jim Rice fans away so he could this place all to himself for Dick Allen!”
“And I would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn’t for you meddling kids! Well, and Paul White.”
I agree with Aaron. McGwire and Sosa and should have their own wing in the HOF, with a complementary juice bar.
I would vote for Mark McGwire because I bet he bought his younger brother Dan McGwire a birthday gift.
I would just like to make one thing VERY clear as a Red Sox fan- I and most of the Sox fans I know feel very strongly that Rice is NOT deserving of the HOF.
I am simply tired of being lumped in with the group of Sox fans who believe he is deserving. The only HOF Rice should be in is the one for ability to hit into the 6-4-3.
Excellent stuff Joe, first time here thanks to Keith Law’s blog.