Comments on: When it Raines … http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/when-it-raines/ Curiously Long Posts Sat, 20 Mar 2010 00:29:53 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Ross http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/when-it-raines/#comment-3286 Ross Sat, 15 Dec 2007 10:30:37 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/when-it-raines/#comment-3286 I'm wondering of your thoughts on Dale Murphy, the only reason I bring this up is because, I believe, is he suffered the fate, as I'm afraid Raines will, a great hitter in a poor offensive era. The same reason Ryne Sandberg, a top 5 2nd baseman alltime, didn't get into the hall on the first ballot. The reason i thought of it, was because you mentioned that Raines would be a sure HOFer if he'd won an MVP or two. Murphy won 2 in consecutive years and was one of the best players of the era, and yet gets almost no HOF consideration. I guess we can chalk him up to, along with what, I'm afraid is going to happen to Raines, a wrongfull overlook of a non-offense era followed by an extreme era of offense. Growing up a Cubs fan in North Dakota (we only had WGN and TBS to watch, thus being a cubs fan) I've always appreciated the Sandbergs, Dawsons, Murphy's of the eighties. I'm too young to know enough about earlier times (although I read as much as I can). I've done no research on this, but it would be interesting to see, broken down by decades maybe, which era the least amount (at the same time, the most amount) of hall of famers came from. My guess, again without doing any research, the 80's were the least appreciated time in baseball, as far as great players getting the recognition they deserve. I’m wondering of your thoughts on Dale Murphy, the only reason I bring this up is because, I believe, is he suffered the fate, as I’m afraid Raines will, a great hitter in a poor offensive era. The same reason Ryne Sandberg, a top 5 2nd baseman alltime, didn’t get into the hall on the first ballot. The reason i thought of it, was because you mentioned that Raines would be a sure HOFer if he’d won an MVP or two. Murphy won 2 in consecutive years and was one of the best players of the era, and yet gets almost no HOF consideration. I guess we can chalk him up to, along with what, I’m afraid is going to happen to Raines, a wrongfull overlook of a non-offense era followed by an extreme era of offense.

Growing up a Cubs fan in North Dakota (we only had WGN and TBS to watch, thus being a cubs fan) I’ve always appreciated the Sandbergs, Dawsons, Murphy’s of the eighties. I’m too young to know enough about earlier times (although I read as much as I can). I’ve done no research on this, but it would be interesting to see, broken down by decades maybe, which era the least amount (at the same time, the most amount) of hall of famers came from. My guess, again without doing any research, the 80’s were the least appreciated time in baseball, as far as great players getting the recognition they deserve.

]]> By: John McCann http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/when-it-raines/#comment-3250 John McCann Fri, 14 Dec 2007 20:00:31 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/when-it-raines/#comment-3250 From 85 to 87, Raines was the man. One year in an abstract in an article called "Rain Delay", Bill had an imaginary argument as to who the best player in baseball was. He came up with Boggs, and Raines 2nd I believe, but if you go back over the article it really should have been Raines. My dream is to see Raines and Dawson elected together, but I know I don't have a lot of support for that. From 85 to 87, Raines was the man. One year in an abstract in an article called “Rain Delay”, Bill had an imaginary argument as to who the best player in baseball was. He came up with Boggs, and Raines 2nd I believe, but if you go back over the article it really should have been Raines.

My dream is to see Raines and Dawson elected together, but I know I don’t have a lot of support for that.

]]> By: tangotiger http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/when-it-raines/#comment-3203 tangotiger Fri, 14 Dec 2007 01:00:30 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/when-it-raines/#comment-3203 If you click my name, you can see a whole set of articles arguing for Raines. If you click my name, you can see a whole set of articles arguing for Raines.

]]> By: Shrike http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/when-it-raines/#comment-3191 Shrike Thu, 13 Dec 2007 21:55:39 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/when-it-raines/#comment-3191 For god's sake it's no slight to Tim Raines that he doesn't measure up to Rickey Henderson. Very few players do. I couldn't disagree more with the conclusions reached by Craig above. It you look at the full context of Raines' candidacy he's a slam dunk Hall of Famer. He was a far superior player to Lou Brock, just to name one, and had a dominant peak featuring several Hall of Fame years, and arguably could have won 2-3 MVPs as Joe points out in his blog post. Give the Rock a 1987 month of April (collusion reared its ugly head there something fierce) and maybe even the writers who focus too much on traditional counting stats would have had to wake up and appreciate just how dominant Raines was. For god’s sake it’s no slight to Tim Raines that he doesn’t measure up to Rickey Henderson. Very few players do. I couldn’t disagree more with the conclusions reached by Craig above.

It you look at the full context of Raines’ candidacy he’s a slam dunk Hall of Famer. He was a far superior player to Lou Brock, just to name one, and had a dominant peak featuring several Hall of Fame years, and arguably could have won 2-3 MVPs as Joe points out in his blog post.

Give the Rock a 1987 month of April (collusion reared its ugly head there something fierce) and maybe even the writers who focus too much on traditional counting stats would have had to wake up and appreciate just how dominant Raines was.

]]> By: Clayton http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/when-it-raines/#comment-3175 Clayton Thu, 13 Dec 2007 15:44:41 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/when-it-raines/#comment-3175 Tim Raines was a very good player. I wouldn't vote for him, but I have no difficulty understanding why someone else would. He doesn't belong in the same paragraph as Rickey, though. Tim Raines was a very good player. I wouldn’t vote for him, but I have no difficulty understanding why someone else would.

He doesn’t belong in the same paragraph as Rickey, though.

]]> By: Levi Stahl http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/when-it-raines/#comment-3164 Levi Stahl Thu, 13 Dec 2007 13:21:49 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/when-it-raines/#comment-3164 His name is mentioned above as a mark against Raines, but I kept thinking this past October that if Kenny Lofton plays even a couple more good seasons (which seems totally possible despite his being 245 years old), we really will have to start looking at him as a possible hall of famer. He's had a hell of a career. Though he's no Raines. His name is mentioned above as a mark against Raines, but I kept thinking this past October that if Kenny Lofton plays even a couple more good seasons (which seems totally possible despite his being 245 years old), we really will have to start looking at him as a possible hall of famer. He’s had a hell of a career.

Though he’s no Raines.

]]> By: Old Man Duggan http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/when-it-raines/#comment-3140 Old Man Duggan Thu, 13 Dec 2007 06:32:35 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/when-it-raines/#comment-3140 And I'm not comfortable with anyone making the assumption that Barry is top 3. I'll grant top 10 without much argument, but Gehrig's stats are insane, and Bonds isn't even a career .300 hitter. Also, you can try to make the argument that his last eleven years were nothing even remotely impressive and that we're essentially looking at a 10-12 year span of excellence, but that's essentially what will be looked at for Ken Griffey, Jr., and few will argue against him being first ballot HOF. And I’m not comfortable with anyone making the assumption that Barry is top 3. I’ll grant top 10 without much argument, but Gehrig’s stats are insane, and Bonds isn’t even a career .300 hitter.

Also, you can try to make the argument that his last eleven years were nothing even remotely impressive and that we’re essentially looking at a 10-12 year span of excellence, but that’s essentially what will be looked at for Ken Griffey, Jr., and few will argue against him being first ballot HOF.

]]> By: Old Man Duggan http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/when-it-raines/#comment-3139 Old Man Duggan Thu, 13 Dec 2007 06:23:07 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/when-it-raines/#comment-3139 But they did have over 2000 walks to go along with their 2700+ hits... But they did have over 2000 walks to go along with their 2700+ hits…

]]> By: rj http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/when-it-raines/#comment-3132 rj Thu, 13 Dec 2007 04:40:45 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/when-it-raines/#comment-3132 While 3000 hits virtually guarantees entry into the Hall, I find it more than a bit ironic that the 3 greatest hitters of all time did not achieve that mark (although Bonds will, if he plays next year). While 3000 hits virtually guarantees entry into the Hall, I find it more than a bit ironic that the 3 greatest hitters of all time did not achieve that mark (although Bonds will, if he plays next year).

]]> By: ajnrules http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/when-it-raines/#comment-3123 ajnrules Thu, 13 Dec 2007 02:47:59 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/when-it-raines/#comment-3123 Tim Raines is probably going to be the hitter's equivalent of Bert Blyleven. who we all know deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. Both men played more than 20 seasons, but finished just short of important milestones (300 wins and 3000 hits.) Neither men made much of a dent in awards season, nor were they really big names when they played. So many voters are willing to overlook the Hall of Fame numbers they put up (3,701 strikeouts, 1,571 runs; 60 shutouts, 808 stolen bases) and the fact that they performed much better statistically than their contemporaries (118 ERA+ and 123 OPS+) and will do everything they can to prevent them from entering the Hall. Yeah...it's tragic. :( 3000 hits is probably the most successful of the three major milestone clubs (4 if you count 3000 strikeouts) in getting people elected to the Hall of Fame. Seriously, everybody with 3000 hits was in the Hall of Fame by 1962, when they started tabulating 1st-ballot data. And everybody that went before the BBWAA after that (with the obvious exception of Pete Rose) made it in on the first ballot. Harmon Killebrew and others had to wait for 500 wins. Don Sutton and others had to wait for 300 wins. But everybody from Stan Musial to Lou Brock to Robin Yount to Cal Ripken Jr. made it in on their first ballot. Obviously, Rafael Palmeiro is going to be another exception, but still...we're talking 16 people that made it in on the first ballot! Rickey Henderson and Craig Biggio will make it 18! Tim Raines is probably going to be the hitter’s equivalent of Bert Blyleven. who we all know deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. Both men played more than 20 seasons, but finished just short of important milestones (300 wins and 3000 hits.) Neither men made much of a dent in awards season, nor were they really big names when they played. So many voters are willing to overlook the Hall of Fame numbers they put up (3,701 strikeouts, 1,571 runs; 60 shutouts, 808 stolen bases) and the fact that they performed much better statistically than their contemporaries (118 ERA+ and 123 OPS+) and will do everything they can to prevent them from entering the Hall.

Yeah…it’s tragic. :(

3000 hits is probably the most successful of the three major milestone clubs (4 if you count 3000 strikeouts) in getting people elected to the Hall of Fame. Seriously, everybody with 3000 hits was in the Hall of Fame by 1962, when they started tabulating 1st-ballot data. And everybody that went before the BBWAA after that (with the obvious exception of Pete Rose) made it in on the first ballot. Harmon Killebrew and others had to wait for 500 wins. Don Sutton and others had to wait for 300 wins. But everybody from Stan Musial to Lou Brock to Robin Yount to Cal Ripken Jr. made it in on their first ballot. Obviously, Rafael Palmeiro is going to be another exception, but still…we’re talking 16 people that made it in on the first ballot! Rickey Henderson and Craig Biggio will make it 18!

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