Comments on: The Most Underachieving Team Ever … http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/the-most-underachieving-team-ever/ Curiously Long Posts Sat, 20 Mar 2010 05:34:24 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: john currie http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/the-most-underachieving-team-ever/#comment-3219 john currie Fri, 14 Dec 2007 04:27:41 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/the-most-underachieving-team-ever/#comment-3219 Opening day..1996... Randy Johnson started & was tiring with a lead later in the game.... Bobby Ayala gets up & starts warming up.... The crowd starts booing! Even before he gets in the game. Opening day..1996…

Randy Johnson started & was tiring with a lead later in the game….
Bobby Ayala gets up & starts warming up…. The crowd starts booing! Even before he gets in the game.

]]> By: Jon http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/the-most-underachieving-team-ever/#comment-3201 Jon Fri, 14 Dec 2007 00:38:27 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/the-most-underachieving-team-ever/#comment-3201 Hopefully, this discussion is still going on. According to Phil Birnbaum, the Mariners were very unlucky during the late 90s. Their big problems? The lineup didn't score as many runs as would've been expected from their batter's stats. If you go by his study (at philbirnbaum.com) the killer was that the pitchers underperformed their expectations. "Top" ten disappointing seasons on these Mariner squadrons: 1999 SEA AL P Fassero, Jeff -56 1995 SEA AL P Bosio, Chris -25 1996 SEA AL B Sojo, Luis -23 1999 SEA AL P Cloude, Ken -22 1997 SEA AL P Martinez, Dennis -22 1997 SEA AL P Charlton, Norm -21 1997 SEA AL B Rodriguez, Alex -20 1996 SEA AL P Hitchcock, Sterling -18 1997 SEA AL P Sanders, Scott -18 1998 SEA AL P Johnson, Randy -17 "Top" ten disappointing players from that Mariner era: P Cloude, Ken -29 P Fassero, Jeff -27 P Bosio, Chris -26 P Martinez, Dennis -22 P Hitchcock, Sterling -18 P Hurtado, Edwin -18 P Sanders, Scott -18 B Fermin, Felix -17 P Lira, Felipe -16 P Suzuki, Mac -16 9 pitchers and 1 hitter. Here's the flip side: B Martinez, Tino 14 P Nelson, Jeff 16 B Buhner, Jay 17 P Abbott, Paul 18 B Sorrento, Paul 19 P Halama, John 21 P Johnson, Randy 24 B Martinez, Edgar 35 P Moyer, Jamie 41 Hopefully, this discussion is still going on. According to Phil Birnbaum, the Mariners were very unlucky during the late 90s. Their big problems? The lineup didn’t score as many runs as would’ve been expected from their batter’s stats. If you go by his study (at philbirnbaum.com) the killer was that the pitchers underperformed their expectations.

“Top” ten disappointing seasons on these Mariner squadrons:

1999 SEA AL P Fassero, Jeff -56
1995 SEA AL P Bosio, Chris -25
1996 SEA AL B Sojo, Luis -23
1999 SEA AL P Cloude, Ken -22
1997 SEA AL P Martinez, Dennis -22
1997 SEA AL P Charlton, Norm -21
1997 SEA AL B Rodriguez, Alex -20
1996 SEA AL P Hitchcock, Sterling -18
1997 SEA AL P Sanders, Scott -18
1998 SEA AL P Johnson, Randy -17

“Top” ten disappointing players from that Mariner era:

P Cloude, Ken -29
P Fassero, Jeff -27
P Bosio, Chris -26
P Martinez, Dennis -22
P Hitchcock, Sterling -18
P Hurtado, Edwin -18
P Sanders, Scott -18
B Fermin, Felix -17
P Lira, Felipe -16
P Suzuki, Mac -16

9 pitchers and 1 hitter.
Here’s the flip side:

B Martinez, Tino 14
P Nelson, Jeff 16
B Buhner, Jay 17
P Abbott, Paul 18
B Sorrento, Paul 19
P Halama, John 21
P Johnson, Randy 24
B Martinez, Edgar 35
P Moyer, Jamie 41

]]> By: Jamie Roth http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/the-most-underachieving-team-ever/#comment-3188 Jamie Roth Thu, 13 Dec 2007 20:28:08 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/the-most-underachieving-team-ever/#comment-3188 Oh, and I love baseball-reference.com. I was at this game and the stats validate why I felt an impending sense of doom whenever the M's didn't have more than a 5 run lead. Oh, and I love baseball-reference.com. I was at this game and the stats validate why I felt an impending sense of doom whenever the M’s didn’t have more than a 5 run lead.

]]> By: Jamie Roth http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/the-most-underachieving-team-ever/#comment-3187 Jamie Roth Thu, 13 Dec 2007 20:26:54 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/the-most-underachieving-team-ever/#comment-3187 I lived in the Seattle area from 95 - 00 and watched a lot of those Mariners games. I haven't done any research, but I remember cringing whenever a starting pitcher was pulled. I would like to know how the Mariners bullpen looked during those years. When the brought in Bobby Ayala the stands would start emptying because we knew all was lost. Look at opening day 1998: 5.2 innings from the starter and he left with a 3 run lead Ayala gives up 3 earned in 1 2/3 while looking very bad Fossas walks his only batter and takes the loss Timlin gives up the 2 run double that gives the Indians the lead and win It just sucked to watch anyone warming up in the bullpen. Ayala had 62 appearences, 75 innings and lost 10 games. It just broke your heart when the starter was showing signs of wear. I lived in the Seattle area from 95 – 00 and watched a lot of those Mariners games. I haven’t done any research, but I remember cringing whenever a starting pitcher was pulled. I would like to know how the Mariners bullpen looked during those years. When the brought in Bobby Ayala the stands would start emptying because we knew all was lost.

Look at opening day 1998:
5.2 innings from the starter and he left with a 3 run lead
Ayala gives up 3 earned in 1 2/3 while looking very bad
Fossas walks his only batter and takes the loss
Timlin gives up the 2 run double that gives the Indians the lead and win

It just sucked to watch anyone warming up in the bullpen. Ayala had 62 appearences, 75 innings and lost 10 games. It just broke your heart when the starter was showing signs of wear.

]]> By: Clayton http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/the-most-underachieving-team-ever/#comment-3181 Clayton Thu, 13 Dec 2007 17:49:10 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/the-most-underachieving-team-ever/#comment-3181 It's impossible for anyone who didn't watch this team closely (I was living on Orcas Island and caught a couple games a week on tv) to ever fully comprehend how disheartening a lousy bullpen can be on an otherwise great team. Ayala and Charlton were rays of light. It’s impossible for anyone who didn’t watch this team closely (I was living on Orcas Island and caught a couple games a week on tv) to ever fully comprehend how disheartening a lousy bullpen can be on an otherwise great team. Ayala and Charlton were rays of light.

]]> By: kdon http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/the-most-underachieving-team-ever/#comment-3180 kdon Thu, 13 Dec 2007 17:48:16 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/the-most-underachieving-team-ever/#comment-3180 As a Phillies fan, this piece is a little scary. Aside from the Gillick connection, the Phils have a great core since ;02 (Abreu, Thome, Abreu, Rollins, Howard, Utley, Hamels, Myers) but have suffered because of fringe players (Bell, Mesa, Abbot, Cormier, Ed and Pat's bullpen retreads...) And the Phils have been in the weaker leaguer the entire time. The big 5 are all locked up through '09, so they aren't done, but I'm starting to worry. As a Phillies fan, this piece is a little scary.

Aside from the Gillick connection, the Phils have a great core since ;02 (Abreu, Thome, Abreu, Rollins, Howard, Utley, Hamels, Myers) but have suffered because of fringe players (Bell, Mesa, Abbot, Cormier, Ed and Pat’s bullpen retreads…)

And the Phils have been in the weaker leaguer the entire time. The big 5 are all locked up through ‘09, so they aren’t done, but I’m starting to worry.

]]> By: Cory P http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/the-most-underachieving-team-ever/#comment-3129 Cory P Thu, 13 Dec 2007 03:30:43 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/the-most-underachieving-team-ever/#comment-3129 Josh writes: “If I may … A-Rod. I mean, I don’t know what to add. But he’s a common link in underachieving teams.” You’re confusing correlation with causation. A-Rod has been on several underachieving teams, true. But to suggest, despite his way-above-average hitting, defense, and base-running, that he is somehow *still* the cause is silly. Teams win ballgames because individuals produce runs on offense and prevent runs on defense. A-Rod does both very very well. By the line of reasoning employed in the quote above, the following would seem reasonable. There are a lot of people who live in KY who have lung-cancer. Therefore, KY causes lung-cancer. Um, probably not. Josh writes:

“If I may … A-Rod. I mean, I don’t know what to add. But he’s a common link in underachieving teams.”

You’re confusing correlation with causation. A-Rod has been on several underachieving teams, true. But to suggest, despite his way-above-average hitting, defense, and base-running, that he is somehow *still* the cause is silly. Teams win ballgames because individuals produce runs on offense and prevent runs on defense. A-Rod does both very very well.

By the line of reasoning employed in the quote above, the following would seem reasonable. There are a lot of people who live in KY who have lung-cancer. Therefore, KY causes lung-cancer.

Um, probably not.

]]> By: Isaiah Hunter http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/the-most-underachieving-team-ever/#comment-3124 Isaiah Hunter Thu, 13 Dec 2007 02:57:02 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/the-most-underachieving-team-ever/#comment-3124 metz: "The M’s never truly understood how to fill the holes around their great players. Maybe because the great players were accidents of being so bad the previous 10 years. Maybe because the front office really didn’t know anything about baseball." The real sad thing is as a Mariner fan, the front office still doesn't know anything about baseball. They seem to trade really good talent for players likely to be released. I dont understand it. metz: “The M’s never truly understood how to fill the holes around their great players. Maybe because the great players were accidents of being so bad the previous 10 years. Maybe because the front office really didn’t know anything about baseball.”

The real sad thing is as a Mariner fan, the front office still doesn’t know anything about baseball. They seem to trade really good talent for players likely to be released. I dont understand it.

]]> By: John in Seattle http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/the-most-underachieving-team-ever/#comment-3121 John in Seattle Thu, 13 Dec 2007 02:33:26 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/the-most-underachieving-team-ever/#comment-3121 I was there and I cared. And as bad as Bobby Ayala was, there was a bigger culprit. Two words: The Kingdome. Only other wordly pitchers (The Unit) and magicians (Moyer) could survive there. Bullpens were routinely shredded, and it's tough to win consistently when everyone knows both teams are likely to end up with runs in double figures. Though I have to admit, it doesn't really explain why they couldn't beat the Rangers........ I was there and I cared. And as bad as Bobby Ayala was, there was a bigger culprit. Two words: The Kingdome. Only other wordly pitchers (The Unit) and magicians (Moyer) could survive there. Bullpens were routinely shredded, and it’s tough to win consistently when everyone knows both teams are likely to end up with runs in double figures. Though I have to admit, it doesn’t really explain why they couldn’t beat the Rangers……..

]]> By: metz http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/the-most-underachieving-team-ever/#comment-3108 metz Wed, 12 Dec 2007 22:17:12 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/the-most-underachieving-team-ever/#comment-3108 The problem with those M's was that management didn't understand that you can build a decent bullpen out of free players. The M's underachieved in their pen by failing to churn through the bad relievers to find some decent ones in AAA and let go by other clubs. Instead they kept trotting out the same bad pitchers every game in middle relief. They were a fun team to watch because of their offensive productivity but were horrible in the pen and on defense. Griffey and A-rod were spectacular but everyone else was plain old bad. Buhner had no range in RF, the left fielder du jour was always bad, Davis had hands of stone at 3rd, Cora had no range at 2nd and Dan Wilson was anemic offensively and thoroughly mediocre on defense. The M's kept trading away good young players during this span to try and fill their holes. Jose Cruz Jr. went for Mike Timlin & Paul Spoljaric (neither were good for the M's), Lowe & Veritek went for Slocumb (who the Sox were going to DFA in a day or so), the team had already traded Swift, Jackson & Burba away for Mitchell. Nelson was traded away in 96 for nothing. The M's never truly understood how to fill the holes around their great players. Maybe because the great players were accidents of being so bad the previous 10 years. Maybe because the front office really didn't know anything about baseball. The problem with those M’s was that management didn’t understand that you can build a decent bullpen out of free players. The M’s underachieved in their pen by failing to churn through the bad relievers to find some decent ones in AAA and let go by other clubs. Instead they kept trotting out the same bad pitchers every game in middle relief. They were a fun team to watch because of their offensive productivity but were horrible in the pen and on defense. Griffey and A-rod were spectacular but everyone else was plain old bad. Buhner had no range in RF, the left fielder du jour was always bad, Davis had hands of stone at 3rd, Cora had no range at 2nd and Dan Wilson was anemic offensively and thoroughly mediocre on defense.

The M’s kept trading away good young players during this span to try and fill their holes. Jose Cruz Jr. went for Mike Timlin & Paul Spoljaric (neither were good for the M’s), Lowe & Veritek went for Slocumb (who the Sox were going to DFA in a day or so), the team had already traded Swift, Jackson & Burba away for Mitchell. Nelson was traded away in 96 for nothing.

The M’s never truly understood how to fill the holes around their great players. Maybe because the great players were accidents of being so bad the previous 10 years. Maybe because the front office really didn’t know anything about baseball.

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